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Samphibian · 01-30-08, 10:12 AM

Awkward topic this one. As far as I am aware (from reviewing the appropriate government animal welfare legislation, available for any to read form DEFRAS website) there is no specific legislation prohibiting the feeding of live vertebrate prey. It is my belief that this is done on purpose to avoid the unneccessary prosecution of responsible keeper's should they (for whatever reason) NEED to attempt live feeding in those one off, last resort sort of occasions.
There are,however, a number of ways in which the law can be moulded to prosecute irresponsible keepers who are livefeeding simply for sadistic pleasureor a mistaken belief that it is "more natural".
Heres an interesting debate on the subject:

The issue we have is on the welfare Clause, Clause 3(4)(c), the need to be able to exhibit normal behaviour patterns. That is really where part of this is coming from. The feeding of live prey to reptiles is extremely rare. Ten years ago it used to be common practice. In many parts of the world, Europe, Holland, France and Germany, it is still the most common way of feeding. We do not enter into that practice here. 99.8% of what we feed will be pre killed, frozen rodents. On occasion, particularly if we are bringing in new species of snakes or whatever, you may have a specimen which is a reluctant feeder and in those circumstances it may be appropriate to feed a live vertebrate to that animal under controlled conditions. Currently under the 1911 Act it is not illegal to feed a live vertebrate to another unless you cause it unnecessary suffering, so that would have to be the result of a court case and the judge would have to make a decision. Those of us who have been involved with reptiles will argue that a mouse that is being produced for food really has no cognizance of what is going on and exhibits no fear. Whilst we absolutely do not want to encourage live feeding, we think we need some clarity as to whether that is going to be made illegal under this clause of fighting. Our concerns are, because of Clause 3(iv)(c), the need to be able to exhibit normal behaviour patterns, that snakes in the wild feed on life prey, there are no carrion feeding snakes, so that would mean we are not going to be able to feed them frozen food; we are going to have to feed them live mice, and equally we would be opposed to having to introduce that. The other issue we have is with breeding. Certain species of reptiles, iguanas would be a good example, engage in quite robust mating activity, and I am afraid the lady tends to suffer quite badly on occasions, but that is a natural process and if people are going to breed these animals that will happen, so we need to make certain that is not caught up in fighting, and you are not going to introduce iguanas together for any kind of sport if you are going to breed them. You may see them exhibit some kind of aggressive behaviour towards each other if the male is meeting the female, and that is quite common in quite a number of lizard species.
Q163 Joan Ruddock: On that point is it documented that this aggression is not part of being in captivity?
Mr Newman: It is well documented, yes.

Q164 Joan Ruddock: Because if that is the case then I would see that is the test of reasonableness that the law would take account of, but on your concept that a mouse—I suppose it is a mouse—did not know it was being bred to be fed to a snake, presumably at the point at which the snake is about to devour it, the mouse is aware and is afraid?
Mr Newman: The mice when introduced to a snake show no fear at all. They will quite often go up and sniff the snake. They are not aware that it is a predator.

Q165 Joan Ruddock: Well, they would not be because—
Mr Newman: Exactly. The strike is in milliseconds and the constriction takes place very quickly. I think any suffering there—and we are killing something so you could argue that wherever you kill something there is suffering—to that animal is so minimal and is very fast, and it is natural behaviour that happens millions of times every day in the wild. But I must stress that we are not looking to say that this is how we want to feed our snakes. We are just trying to make sure we have clarity on this because it could be an issue, with some of the newer species of snakes, and there are snakes being discovered all the time which keen enthusiasts want to bring into captivity. On rare occasions it may be necessary and we just need to make certain that if that is the case we can still do it legally.

Q166 Joan Ruddock: Or alternatively that perhaps we decide as a society that we do not want people to have the opportunity to feed mice to snakes and therefore it will not be allowed, so if they cannot ingest a frozen mouse or whatever it is, then your new snake is going to die, I am afraid.
Mr Newman: Usually live feeding would be the last resort. There are various techniques we have to encourage snakes to feed but there are certain species, Green Tree Pythons and Green Tree Boas, which are quite sensitive. These are animals which can stress quite easily and actually force feeding a snake or assist feeding a snake is quite stressful to that snake, and I think people then have to make a decision whether they think that is better for the animal or whether it would be better for that animal, as it would do in nature, to let it kill its own prey.

This was lifted from House of Commons - Environment, Food and Rural Affairs - Minutes of Evidence

Now, this was before the most recent welfare act, in which you can be prosecuted for "arranging a fight between two animals". However, I believe that each case would still be treated individually - so if you are feeding live prey to a snake as a last resort, after consulting with specialist keepers and veterinarians, and having more ocnventional methods fail then I believe charges would be wavered...however if your feeding live for any other reason then you should be prosecuted for negligence as you have put your animal at great risk of horrific injury when there exists a wide selection of completely valid alternatives.

In the majority of cases, its best to assume that live feeding is illegal, and that you can only do so in individual exceptional cicumstances where no other options exist-something like that should not be decided overnight, but after discussions with DEFRA and specialist organisations.

01-30-08, 10:12 AM	#7 (permalink)
Samphibian Registered Users Join Date: Jan 2008 Country: Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Awkward topic this one. As far as I am aware (from reviewing the appropriate government animal welfare legislation, available for any to read form DEFRAS website) there is no specific legislation prohibiting the feeding of live vertebrate prey. It is my belief that this is done on purpose to avoid the unneccessary prosecution of responsible keeper's should they (for whatever reason) NEED to attempt live feeding in those one off, last resort sort of occasions. There are,however, a number of ways in which the law can be moulded to prosecute irresponsible keepers who are livefeeding simply for sadistic pleasureor a mistaken belief that it is "more natural". Heres an interesting debate on the subject: The issue we have is on the welfare Clause, Clause 3(4)(c), the need to be able to exhibit normal behaviour patterns. That is really where part of this is coming from. The feeding of live prey to reptiles is extremely rare. Ten years ago it used to be common practice. In many parts of the world, Europe, Holland, France and Germany, it is still the most common way of feeding. We do not enter into that practice here. 99.8% of what we feed will be pre killed, frozen rodents. On occasion, particularly if we are bringing in new species of snakes or whatever, you may have a specimen which is a reluctant feeder and in those circumstances it may be appropriate to feed a live vertebrate to that animal under controlled conditions. Currently under the 1911 Act it is not illegal to feed a live vertebrate to another unless you cause it unnecessary suffering, so that would have to be the result of a court case and the judge would have to make a decision. Those of us who have been involved with reptiles will argue that a mouse that is being produced for food really has no cognizance of what is going on and exhibits no fear. Whilst we absolutely do not want to encourage live feeding, we think we need some clarity as to whether that is going to be made illegal under this clause of fighting. Our concerns are, because of Clause 3(iv)(c), the need to be able to exhibit normal behaviour patterns, that snakes in the wild feed on life prey, there are no carrion feeding snakes, so that would mean we are not going to be able to feed them frozen food; we are going to have to feed them live mice, and equally we would be opposed to having to introduce that. The other issue we have is with breeding. Certain species of reptiles, iguanas would be a good example, engage in quite robust mating activity, and I am afraid the lady tends to suffer quite badly on occasions, but that is a natural process and if people are going to breed these animals that will happen, so we need to make certain that is not caught up in fighting, and you are not going to introduce iguanas together for any kind of sport if you are going to breed them. You may see them exhibit some kind of aggressive behaviour towards each other if the male is meeting the female, and that is quite common in quite a number of lizard species. Q163 Joan Ruddock: On that point is it documented that this aggression is not part of being in captivity? Mr Newman: It is well documented, yes. Q164 Joan Ruddock: Because if that is the case then I would see that is the test of reasonableness that the law would take account of, but on your concept that a mouse—I suppose it is a mouse—did not know it was being bred to be fed to a snake, presumably at the point at which the snake is about to devour it, the mouse is aware and is afraid? Mr Newman: The mice when introduced to a snake show no fear at all. They will quite often go up and sniff the snake. They are not aware that it is a predator. Q165 Joan Ruddock: Well, they would not be because— Mr Newman: Exactly. The strike is in milliseconds and the constriction takes place very quickly. I think any suffering there—and we are killing something so you could argue that wherever you kill something there is suffering—to that animal is so minimal and is very fast, and it is natural behaviour that happens millions of times every day in the wild. But I must stress that we are not looking to say that this is how we want to feed our snakes. We are just trying to make sure we have clarity on this because it could be an issue, with some of the newer species of snakes, and there are snakes being discovered all the time which keen enthusiasts want to bring into captivity. On rare occasions it may be necessary and we just need to make certain that if that is the case we can still do it legally. Q166 Joan Ruddock: Or alternatively that perhaps we decide as a society that we do not want people to have the opportunity to feed mice to snakes and therefore it will not be allowed, so if they cannot ingest a frozen mouse or whatever it is, then your new snake is going to die, I am afraid. Mr Newman: Usually live feeding would be the last resort. There are various techniques we have to encourage snakes to feed but there are certain species, Green Tree Pythons and Green Tree Boas, which are quite sensitive. These are animals which can stress quite easily and actually force feeding a snake or assist feeding a snake is quite stressful to that snake, and I think people then have to make a decision whether they think that is better for the animal or whether it would be better for that animal, as it would do in nature, to let it kill its own prey. This was lifted from House of Commons - Environment, Food and Rural Affairs - Minutes of Evidence Now, this was before the most recent welfare act, in which you can be prosecuted for "arranging a fight between two animals". However, I believe that each case would still be treated individually - so if you are feeding live prey to a snake as a last resort, after consulting with specialist keepers and veterinarians, and having more ocnventional methods fail then I believe charges would be wavered...however if your feeding live for any other reason then you should be prosecuted for negligence as you have put your animal at great risk of horrific injury when there exists a wide selection of completely valid alternatives. In the majority of cases, its best to assume that live feeding is illegal, and that you can only do so in individual exceptional cicumstances where no other options exist-something like that should not be decided overnight, but after discussions with DEFRA and specialist organisations.
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