The Stargazer Project... - Page 2

**Hurley** · 01-24-07, 12:16 AM

I take it you're referring to the healthy ones that would be possible carriers?

Brings up a moral question, doesn't it? The percent chance that these are possible carriers is known. 67% chance. Is it ethical to sell them to knowing buyers that understand the risk or are looking for a healthy pet?

On the flip side...the pairing of some untested sunkissed animals. The breeder doesn't know if one or both of the parents is S factored but they are from sunkissed lines...by default possible carriers. Is it ethical to sell them with no disclaimer? With a disclaimer that it's in the sunkissed lines? Don't sell any until you obtain testers for yourself and test the parents?

Not a black and white issue at all, to my view.

Which is more unethical? Euthanizing a whole batch of normal animals that may or may not be carrying a mutant gene that could produce star gazers down the line if paired up (and risking spread of a gene that frankly, is spread, as time is going to show) or placing those animals with full disclosure in pet homes or with people who understand the risk or even perhaps want to test cross them and have testers of their own with the positive ones?

I don't ask this to be snide, but I honestly don't see a "correct" answer here.

The only incorrect one I can see would be to sit on the information and/or hide it in the name of selling hatchlings.

So, to answer your question after much rambling...I haven't decided. Would make for a good debate point, I think.

**Taceas** · 01-24-07, 12:19 AM

Thanks for testing it out and finding who in your colony are carriers of this affliction, even if it is somewhat bittersweet.

That said, are you going to be wanting results from pairings from those of us with offspring?

I have a pair of 2006 Sunkissed from Mattie x Strong Bad, and while I wasn't going to cross them to each other initially (I was hoping to cross them into another line of Sunkisseds), I believe that crossing them together should be imperative to determine if they too are carriers or are free of the "heterozygous" form.

I too would like to see a video of what exactly we should all be looking out for. I have a general idea, as I've seen some brain damaged critters be wobbly, but usually not just when in an "excited" mode.

**Dionythicus** · 01-24-07, 12:24 AM

You weren't being snide. You were being honest. It's not an easy decision. I agree that the S Factor is already out there and that labeling these as potential carriers would not be a wrong thing. I wasn't sure what your goal was by proving out Mattie. I didn't know if you were trying to prove out the S Factor so you could try to cull your breeders who carry it. I won't object to whatever decision you make because its already out there.

**Hurley** · 01-24-07, 12:28 AM

I didn't bother to videotape at rest since they look perfectly normal.

In this first video (an AVI file), you can see some star-gazer hatchlings out actively exploring the surrounds, curious as to what I'm doing with the camera so a little agitated...

Star-gazers actively exploring.

So you can see them at their most exaggerated, I scooted them into this deli cup and got them "running" by touching their tails. This shows how with agitation they get much more pronounced.

Reaction of star-gazing hatchlings to being stimulated to move about.

So, like I said, unless you really get them going, they appear normal. When they're defending themselves or sensing something to eat, they get very animated and lose balance so they swing their heads. They're just so very reminiscent of cerebellar hypoplasia cats who have trouble with fine motor control, but lead perfectly happy lives.

**Hurley** · 01-24-07, 12:33 AM

My goal with Mattie was to prove if she carried it or not since she's from sunkissed lines. If she didn't then she'd enter my "clear" list and I wouldn't bother to test her offspring if not bred to a suspect male. If she did carry it, she'd enter the "known carrier" list and will be used to screen any suspect males. Either way, I felt it important to know for certain.

The star gazing hatchlings of this clutch will either be humanely euthanized and sent for research or I may try to raise a few if they're stong and eating since a breedable adult star gazer would be much more valuable as a tester animal than a het. Second advantage should they grow and do well would be to study progression of signs with age or lack thereof.

Should I decide to cull any animals, they will be euthanized and recycled as kingsnake food.

**Dionythicus** · 01-24-07, 04:36 PM

Thank you for your efforts in this. I know it can't be easy to have to make these choices. I have always wondered about the appearance of stargazing itself, so thank for the video. Darn, they're cute!

I have a brother/sister pair of sunkissed from Kathy Love, who warned me up front about the potential for carrying the S Factor in the sunkissed lines. I will probably breed them together first as a test.

I look at the S Factor like any genetic defect, there's always the potential for it to appear and you try to avoid breeding those that you know carry it. At least it appears immediately at hatching and isn't something that may or may not show up in the course of their lives.

Joanna · 01-24-07, 11:10 PM

Interesting ethical dilemma for any of us with sunkissed corns. Even if you breed them to non sunkissed corns you run the risk of passing on the genes. How many people who are buying their corns as pets will be put off buying a corn when they hear their snake could carry the defective gene? How many people won't care, will catch the addiction and breed their snake, forgetting they were told it may carry this and then pass the genetics on?

So, do you not breed sunkisseds or do you not sell until you can be sure your snake does not carry the gene? That would mean breeding at least one or more generations to prove your snake carries it or not and what do you do with those hatchlings? Is it ethical to breed a snake knowing that you will cull the hatchlings until you can prove they do not carry a genetic mutation?

I have no answers, only more question. I also don't think there is only one right answer. Please forgive me if none of this is clear, it's only Wednesday but this week has already taken its toll on me!

**Hurley** · 01-27-07, 04:26 PM

Update on this clutch: Final Totals

Star Gazers:

2 Male Okeetee
1 Male Sunkissed
1 Female Okeetee
2 Female Sunkisseds

This goes along with the other results I've been told that star-gazing does NOT seem to be sex-linked or linked to the sunkissed gene.

Normal Siblings (67% poss S-factored):

3 Male Okeetees
3 Male Sunkisseds
8 Female Okeetees
1 Female Sunkissed

(Seems the skew on this clutch is to the high end on the female ratio and Okeetee ratio for the normal siblings, overall. I will be rechecking the females after they shed as sometimes they don't pop well prior to shedding.)

End totals: 21 live, 2 D.I.E.
9 Males : 12 Females (will recheck after shed)
14 Okeetees : 7 Sunkisseds (50-50 expected ratio, DIE were 1 OK, 1 SK)
15 Normal : 6 Star-gazers (nice 3:1 ratio consistent with recessive gene)

So, that's what I know for now. I'm going to try to locate an interested pathologist with experience in reptile neuroanatomy and send them some SGs and some normal siblings and see what we can find out.

**Mrs. InsaneOne** · 02-21-07, 02:11 PM

I just found this thread today, and was reading up on it due to the fact that we have one of Strong Bad & Mattie's sunkissed offspring from last year. He's actually out on a breeding loan and that makes me concerned due to the possibility of having him be a carrier. I will of course notify the breeder I loaned him to, so that he will also be aware of the possibility.

I would very intersted in obtaining an 's factored' female or a 1.1 pair that can be used to check him and any offspring of his, should you have any available sometime in the future. I'd really hate to produce snakes that might be carrying this gene and risk spreading it even further into the gene pool.

I downloaded the videos so I can watch them to familairize myself with the star-gazing a bit more and will definately be following this thread more closely in the future.

Thank you, Connie, for all the effort you have put into gathering information on this.

Jenn

**Hurley** · 02-21-07, 07:47 PM

Currently the only proven S-factored snakes I have are Mattie and Sir. Strong Bad is clean, which is nice since I've started many projects with him. I have 15 possible hets from the Mattie/Sir clutch that each have a 67% chance of being S-factored at present, but until they're cross bred there's no way to tell if they carry it or not. This is why I'm hoping to be able to get a male star gazer to maturity that is breedable. It would make it possible to make whole clutches of KNOWN s-factored animals that could be used as testers in the future for everyone. Otherwise, we're left with painstakingly proving out testers, one at a time.

I'm very happy to have 1.1 s-factored snakes for our own use so I can have known non-carriers and clean projects in generations to come, but I've got a lot of testing to do. However, this does no one else any good in testing out their own collections if they want to, so we'll see what we can do about that.