The Stargazer Project...

[Taceas]

I just wish it didn't take so long for corns to mature to breeding age, and also wish there were a simple blood test to prove it out.

I'd hate to hatch out a clutch of mostly stargazers only to euthanize them just to find out if the pair I got from you last year are carriers. Seems like such a dreadful waste.

[Hurley]

Yes, it's unfortunate there's no short cut at present.

You can outcross and be quite sure not to see star gazing in the first generation...unfortunately that's a double-edged sword in the long run as it serves to spread the gene around undetected as the information is lost until it's endemic in the population and begins to show up "seemingly at random".

For me, (and I'm by no means preaching "this is the right way and everyone else is wrong"), it's worth it to hatch out some stargazers and potential carriers in test crosses if I can give myself a known clean subset of breeders with which to have projects where I can be quite certain not to see the gene pop up. For someone else, it may be worth it to minimize the chance of producing stargazers by outcrossing continuously. I find this a dangerous route for my own self, and choose not to go there.

What is good, though, is to get all this info out there and some good discussion on how to track/follow/minimize/eliminate this gene from the breeding population as best we can.

More comments and discussion welcome.

[midnightline]

It would be so nice if there was someone who had the capacity to create a genetics test for things like this, darnit...

But yes, I agree... the more sunkissed lines get mixed in with other lines, the more we'll start seeing detrimental genes pop up in random pairings. I just wish there was a better way to test than each person keeping 1 or more S-factored sunkisseds around to check genes with. Bleah.

Honestly, I think the stargazer issue is far more important to keep watch on than any hibird bloodlines. Here's a -known- detrimental gene that should probably be culled if and when possible.

[HanneysCorns]

Originally Posted by midnightline

Honestly, I think the stargazer issue is far more important to keep watch on than any hibird bloodlines. Here's a -known- detrimental gene that should probably be culled if and when possible.

I agree completely Kat.

Recently a thread was started on ReptilesCanada in regards to 'wobble/bobble head' spider balls. A very well known breeder of ball pythons here in Canada had received 2 of these ball pythons for breeding loans. He observed these balls and their nightime activity and decided there was no way he was going to propagate this defect...he refused to do the breeding. The bobble head balls are what we in the corn world now call 'Stargazers'.

In that particular thread on RC, I posted a link to this thread to let the 'ball folks' know that this ugly defect has also raised it's head in the corn world. What amazed me the most was that many of the 'ball folk' here in Canada went on the 'defend' this defect in balls as 'cute', 'not that bad', 'well it's only a slight wobble and only happens when they eat' to 'it's just part of the morph' type of comments. This 'defect' has now been accepted rather than deleted from the gene pool with some. Why? Dollars and cents!

I truly hope us 'corn folk' have higher standards. I presently have 2 pairs of sunkissed stock in my collection from 2 different U.S. breeders. I love the look that the sunkissed gene adds into the mix; being a newly isolated gene, it's future possibilities when combined with other morphs is limitless. I would love to spread that gene into some of my other morphs; that was my original goal of course.

With the information we now have available, thanks to Connie's work, I will NOT be introducing any sunkissed genes into other morphs until I can be assured I do not carry the defective 'stargazing' gene in my stock. Yes, this will put a few projects on hold for an extra year or two, but to me, that is more ethical than turning a blind eye to the whole issue as some of the ball python breeders have.

Will I buy future 'sunkissed' stock? You bet I will...but only if the breeder can assure me he/she has tested for the 'S' defect within their own breeding stock. I fervently hope all corn breeders will make every effort to eliminate this defect from their lines.

Don't you just love genetics? The 'good', the 'bad', and the 'ugly'...the more we advance, the more we discover.

Ruth

[Hurley]

Update:

5 of the 6 stargazers from clutch 1 ate off the bat and have completed their 2nd sheds and are still eating and growing. 1 shows no interest in eating and has refused 6 meals. This is the likely candidate to send off for pathology. I've got some names and I'll be getting this work done soon, I hope. 2nd clutch is incubating from the same parents.

Just wanted to update..

[Hurley]

Another update if anyone is following this...

I euthanized the one non-feeder star gazer today and fixed her in formalin to ship to the reptile pathologist (talked to him yesterday and gave him the rundown on the stargazing scenario). He's going to look preliminarily on the formalin fixed snake and if need be, I'll send him some live specimens if he thinks he needs them to make a diagnosis.

Hopefully we'll know more within a week.

[HanneysCorns]

Thanks for the update Connie. You can bet I'm following this in eager anticipation of the findings.

If that little one only knew how much she will contribute in this research, she'd be so proud. Connie, I commend you for your work with this project. It can't be easy knowing that as you watch these little ones grow, you may have to sacrifice a few more.

You have my sincere gratitude and appreciation for all you have done in your effort to help us better understand this anomoly we call Stargazing.

Ruth

[kitty]

I'll echo Ruth's sentiment. I really appreciate the work you're doing to find out more about the gene, especially since I'll be working with sunkisseds in the near future. Being able to identify and eliminate the stargazer flaw will be integral to my project plans.

Keep us posted!

[Hurley]

Update - I received the path report back and at least in the newly hatched gazer corn, no anatomical abnormality was found. Unfortunately, these guys are not big enough to get enough blood to screen for metabolic abnormalities at this time. I will plan on raising these guys up longer and attmept to get them large enough for a blood draw and another will be submitted after some growth to see if any anatomical derangements become distinguishable.

I've also put in an email to the pathologist for any other recommendations besides the above.

Here's the whole report I got back with addresses and personal info removed:


Case No.: G07-1288 Tissues obtained: 03/09/07
Received: 03/16, reported 03/31/07

Connie Hurley, DVM
Patient ID: Corn Snake #2006.1/20

HISTORY: This 1.5-month-old female corn snake has an apparent hereditary (simple recessive) neurological condition that results in nonprogressive vestibular-like condition where the snake eats, drinks, reacts, sheds, and grips normally but, with agitation, has flailing of the head back and forth and stargazing behavior.

CLINICAL DIAGNOSIS: Open.

GROSS: Received in formalin is one corn snake to 30 cm. in greatest dimension that is processed in six blocks following appropriate decalcification of blocks #4-6.

MICROSCOPIC: Liver: Mild vacuolar change is noted in hepatocytes. Pancreas: Mild vacuolar change is noted in acinar cells. Small intestine: Mild vacuolar change is noted in some of the enterocytes. Kidney: Rare tubules are mineralized. Adrenal: Mild vacuolar change is noted in some of the interrenal cells. The following tissues are histologically within normal limits: esophagus, intestine, stomach, heart, trachea, spleen, thymus, adipose, lung, brain, spinal cord, ears, eyes, oral and nasal cavities.

DIAGNOSIS: 1. Mild vacuolar change, hepatocytes, acinar cells, enterocytes, and interrenal cells.
2. Mild renal tubular mineralization.

COMMENT: The vacuolar change noted in a variety of cell types is likely within normal limits for the age of the snake. No underlying disease processes are noted at the light microscopic level. I suspect that the central nervous system signs noted clinically are due to some form of metabolic derangement rather than a morphologic change. It is also considered possible that morphologic changes may develop as the snakes age, and in this regard, you may want to consider an additional histologic evaluation in an older cohort at a future date.

(Read out by a boarded pathologist, specializing in exotics pathology)


What was not seen, that is significant, was any sign of infectious cause or major abnormality of the brain such as a portion that doesn't grow correctly due to this genetic defect.

We don't have the underlying cause known yet, but we've ruled out some things. We'll keep plugging away here and see if we can get a more clear answer.


~~~Connie

[Snowfyre]

I'm glad to hear that the snake's ears were okay. But seriously, thanks for putting in the extra effort for the cornsnake cause.