The Stargazer Project... - Page 4

Zythen · 08-10-07, 09:52 AM

I'm no expert by any means, which of course leaves me with a question on this and I can see that this thread hasnt been updated in a while. Now I have no intention of breeding any snakes, so this is just for information, is it likely that this defect is the result of inbreeding? I ask this because it's normal for defects such as this to be caused by inbreeding in other animals. Also is there an update to this?

FunkyRes · 08-10-07, 12:52 PM

If the broken gene exists in the line, inbreeding is more likely to result in it expressing itself, but no - the mutation is not caused by inbreeding.

It's a broken simple recessive gene.

**midnightline** · 08-10-07, 02:36 PM

I ask this because it's normal for defects such as this to be caused by inbreeding in other animals.

This statement is incorrect. FunkyRes has the right of it. Inbreeding uncovers defects more readily, if they exist, but it does not cause the defect to exist in the first place.

Think of it like digging a hole in some dirt. If there's rocks buried in the dirt where you're digging, continuous digging in the spot where the rocks are is more likely to uncover them than if you dig in various random locations, but if there are no rocks in the area you're digging, it doesn't matter if you keep digging in the same hole time after time. You won't find anything if there's nothing to find.

Zythen · 08-10-07, 04:48 PM

You're right about the inbreeding. Is this thought to be secluded to a few blood lines or is this something you feel could be a common issue that just hasn't really come about?

pcar · 08-10-07, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by Zythen

You're right about the inbreeding. Is this thought to be secluded to a few blood lines or is this something you feel could be a common issue that just hasn't really come about?

This is mostly showing up in the Sunkissed lines, but isn't in all of them. There are breeding trials going on to prove out which sunkisseds have them and which don't. But right now, anything that has a sunkissed in the background is a potential carrier.

Zythen · 08-10-07, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by pcar

This is mostly showing up in the Sunkissed lines, but isn't in all of them. There are breeding trials going on to prove out which sunkisseds have them and which don't. But right now, anything that has a sunkissed in the background is a potential carrier.

When you say that though you mean a specific sunkissed background right? Is it something that can actually be traced back to the first Sunkissed to have it? Any theories on why its linked to the Sunkissed line? Is there an estimate on the percentage of snakes that have this?

This is a really informative thread, in all honesty if I came upon one before reading this I would have thought it was awesome and would have bought it.

pcar · 08-10-07, 05:34 PM

That is what this whole testing thread is about. To try and test out unknown sunkissed, okeetees, and normals to known stargazers. Right now, I think that Connie is the only one that has really started testing her stock, but others are working on getting stargazers raised up to do so. I don't have any sunkissed blood in my collection, at least not that I know of, but I am keeping this info close so that if I decide I want to get sunkissed I will either be able to test them out or know what their parents are carrying.

**midnightline** · 08-10-07, 05:54 PM

Any theories on why its linked to the Sunkissed line?

Because that's the line it showed up in? Since until recently there hasn't been a lot of crossing sunkisseds into other lines, the stargazer phenomenon is far more prevalent in sunkissed and okeetee lines. Kathy Love discovered it in her lines a while back, but stargazing didn't wind up in the spotlight until recently. It's not that the stargazing gene is linked to sunkissed... in fact, it's likely not. It's that since the first stargazers were in sunkissed/okeetee lines, the gene hasn't spread very far and is still most likely to show itself in those lines rather than your average normal/other morph.

**Serpwidgets** · 08-11-07, 05:15 AM

Mutations are a lot more common than they are given credit for. This is not a once-in-a-million years thing, it happens routinely. (Look at the rates of known human genetic defects that are spontaneous. IIRC Down's syndrome is one in less than a thousand, and that's only one of many. And this is in a population where inbreeding is kept to a minimum... well except Arkansas, LOL.)

Since the first known specimens were within a specific population (which contained sunkisseds and okeetees) then the one known gene within that population will more frequently be found alongside the mutant, in the short term.

With each generation of "outcrossing" you lower the gene frequency within the "potential carrier" population, but at the same time you are increasing the population of "potential carriers." So, a series of outcrossings that reduces the number of "possible carrier" ancestors to a sixteenth of what it was, also increases the number of "possible carriers" by sixteen times. This can make the gene's appearance "uncommon" but it also makes it completely unpredictable and therefore unavoidable.

And sunkissed is being and has already been outcrossed into everything, meaning there will be snakes of all morphs that are descended from sunkisseds. Since some of those are carriers, the stargazer gene is going to make it way into the outcrossed lines. Meanwhile, normals, and other non-sunkissed corns who are s-factored are being produced, and sold... many as "Space Garbage" without mention of where they came from.

The difference we as breeders can make is by working with known genotypes, and thus not making "random" outcrossings. This is why the testing is being done. A snake descended from proven non-carriers is not equal to a snake descended from "I haven't tested mine" ancestors.

**Hurley** · 08-11-07, 08:51 PM

Slightly off topic, but thought I'd post an update on the 5 gazers I kept to attempt to raise up:

They are all doing very well, nearly as big as their normal siblings. I'm sure the difference is partly my fault as I've fed them smaller meals hoping to make things easy on them to eat...not that they really seem to need it, LOL. All 5 are completely unchanged neurologically from their first day out of the egg, though they've learned to compensate for their handicap and are better at getting where they wish to go.

They are all on rat pinks and growing fast. Beautiful little guys and gals, too.

Their 3 normal siblings are also doing well, eating, acting, and growing like normal robust Love stock Okeetees/Sunkisseds do.