The Stargazer Project...

[HanneysCorns]

Connie,

A while back you posted a thread on the other forum about your Stargazer Project. I would really be interested in hearing about updates and findings about these guys if you'd care to share with us.

Such a worthwhile project...it kinda pulled on my heart strings a little.

Ruth

[Hurley]

Status of the stargazer project currently is that I have 3 2006 siblings to the star-gazers who are ravenous feeders and 3 star-gazing hatchlings in the freezer after they quit eating and became weak. I also have plans to test cross anything I have from sunkissed lines (where the gene originated, apparently) and see who may or may not be carrying. As far as I'm concerned, anything that is from sunkissed lines is a potential carrier. It will be valuable to have known carriers in the future for the purpose of test-crossing and clearing stock as "star-gazer non-carrier". Given the recessive nature of the gene, it's going to pop up and with a vengence seeing how the sunkissed crosses are getting going everywhere.

Sir, the big sunkissed male, was obtained as a carrier for the gene. He is testing out Mattie this year for star-gazing as she's a het sunkissed. We'll see what comes out of that as this clutch is pipping now. If she proves positive, then I'll know that there's a high probability that Strong Bad is clean. If she proves negative...I won't know anything about Strong Bad, but will about her. We'll see what comes of the clutch. My plan it to test cross all sunkisseds (and kids of any proven carriers if/when they're discovered) so I know who's clean and who isn't. As a side-effect, I may get some numbers to add to the compilation and we can get this published and recognized in academia.

Anyway, with that group of star gazers...it was worth a shot, but they seem to just get so far along and peter out. I'd like to send in some star-gazers to a lab for pathology to see if we can at least identify the anatomical/storage disease/pathologic process of this trait. It'd be nice to have a pathologic process to list with the name and mode of inheritance.

I've got possible hets to prove out and I need to do the required crosses to prove that it's an inheritable trait, but I don't think there's much doubt, given the data I've collected on clutches that have produced star-gazers and pairings of those animals within a colony. Seems pretty certain. However, I need some actual numbers (star gazers:none in the clutches), so I'll be trying to collect data on that.

[HanneysCorns]

Status of the stargazer project currently is that I have 3 2006 siblings to the star-gazers who are ravenous feeders and 3 star-gazing hatchlings in the freezer after they quit eating and became weak.

Thanks for the update Connie. I'm sad to hear the star-gazer hatchlings didn't survive. At what age did you begin to notice that feeding problems were occurring?

As far as I'm concerned, anything that is from sunkissed lines is a potential carrier. It will be valuable to have known carriers in the future for the purpose of test-crossing and clearing stock as "star-gazer non-carrier". Given the recessive nature of the gene, it's going to pop up and with a vengence seeing how the sunkissed crosses are getting going everywhere.

Sunkissed are such beauties too. It's such a shame that the isolation of this gene and all the efforts/time put into this project has proven to have this down-side...the discovering of this defective gene.

We'll see what comes out of that as this clutch is pipping now. If she proves positive, then I'll know that there's a high probability that Strong Bad is clean. If she proves negative...I won't know anything about Strong Bad, but will about her. We'll see what comes of the clutch.

Is this something that occurs right out of the egg? Can you immediately see after the hatchling emerges that it will be a star-gazer? If this isn't possible at what stage is it first noticeable?

My plan it to test cross all sunkisseds (and kids of any proven carriers if/when they're discovered) so I know who's clean and who isn't. As a side-effect, I may get some numbers to add to the compilation and we can get this published and recognized in academia.

I applaud you for your dedication to this project. Do you think it is possible to eventually 'control' (I use that word for lack of a better one at the moment) and elimate this defective trait thru selective breeding measures? Seems to me that with so many Sunkisseds and their hets being in the hands of breeders who do wish to work with this gene, that we all need to identify if the sunkisseds we have are also carriers. To not do so, really is just allowing that possibility of producing star-gazing offspring to keep re-occurring in our population of Sunkisseds.

Anyway, with that group of star gazers...it was worth a shot, but they seem to just get so far along and peter out. I'd like to send in some star-gazers to a lab for pathology to see if we can at least identify the anatomical/storage disease/pathologic process of this trait. It'd be nice to have a pathologic process to list with the name and mode of inheritance.

Were there any other visual signs that you noted as they deteriorated other than their decline in appetite? I agree that pathology would definitely help us understand the anatomical effects this trait has, and it would be, from a scientific point of view, informative to understand the process, but if the decline is rapid then it would seem almost that these hatchlings would have to be sacrified in timely intervals so that the stages can be documented.

It would not be a project for the 'faint of heart' and I commend you for your dedication to uncovering this pathological process.

I've got possible hets to prove out and I need to do the required crosses to prove that it's an inheritable trait, but I don't think there's much doubt, given the data I've collected on clutches that have produced star-gazers and pairings of those animals within a colony. Seems pretty certain. However, I need some actual numbers (star gazers:none in the clutches), so I'll be trying to collect data on that.

Hopefully other breeders will also join in and provide data to help along with this worthwhile project.

You have given me much food for thought. I have been maturing a pair of '05 Sunkissed with the hopes of producing some multi-hets for future breeding projects. I also have a pair of CCCorn's multi hets from your '05 breeding of Zamboni x Gonzo. Perhaps proving whether they carry the trait recessively should be my first step in my planned projects rather than be faced with the possibility that this defect occurs in year's to come. As with any recessive trait/defect, 'knowns' can at least be channelled into other projects and then disappointment is adverted in having them suddenly show up when you least expect it.

Good luck with this project Connie; it is one I will follow with continued interest. Thanks again for the update.

Ruth

[vanderkm]

Thanks to Ruth for asking and it is great to hear the update on this issue - definitely something to be aware of for anyone working with these lines - certainly appreciate Connie pursuing it to clarify the inheritance.

mary v.

[Hurley]

Thanks for the update Connie. I'm sad to hear the star-gazer hatchlings didn't survive. At what age did you begin to notice that feeding problems were occurring?

They were a few months old, the noticeably weakest ones fading before the ones that were robust and growing.

Sunkissed are such beauties too. It's such a shame that the isolation of this gene and all the efforts/time put into this project has proven to have this down-side...the discovering of this defective gene.

I doubt the gene has anything to do with sunkissed in particular, it just happened to appear in that line and because of selection pressure to recapture the sunkissed gene, that gene was recaptured as well. This gene will spread due to ignorance of carriers and it will not be limited to sunkissed lines, that much is a certainty. Testing these guys out and getting clean lines to continue projects seems to be the most logical course of action.

Is this something that occurs right out of the egg? Can you immediately see after the hatchling emerges that it will be a star-gazer? If this isn't possible at what stage is it first noticeable?

Yes, it's noticeable right out of the egg, if you stimulate them. If they're out exploring on their own they're quite normal other than some head swaying periodically. If you scare them or interest them in food, the signs are accentuated. Signs never seemed to progress, at least the coordination aspect. They stayed the same from hatch to death, pretty much, non-painful, normal mentation, just uncoordinated, much like cerebellar hypoplastic cats. I'm interested to see where the problem localizes out to.

I applaud you for your dedication to this project. Do you think it is possible to eventually 'control' (I use that word for lack of a better one at the moment) and elimate this defective trait thru selective breeding measures? Seems to me that with so many Sunkisseds and their hets being in the hands of breeders who do wish to work with this gene, that we all need to identify if the sunkisseds we have are also carriers. To not do so, really is just allowing that possibility of producing star-gazing offspring to keep re-occurring in our population of Sunkisseds.

If this truely is a simple recessive gene, it should be able to be tested for and carriers eliminated from the breeding pool to give us lines known to be clear of star-gazing. It's not going to happen across the population because there is no way that everyone will test cross all breeders and cull all carriers. The best we can hope for (and the ACR may be a big help with this) is to test within our own breeding colonies and clear our own lines.

Were there any other visual signs that you noted as they deteriorated other than their decline in appetite? I agree that pathology would definitely help us understand the anatomical effects this trait has, and it would be, from a scientific point of view, informative to understand the process, but if the decline is rapid then it would seem almost that these hatchlings would have to be sacrified in timely intervals so that the stages can be documented.

The only sign of decline was failure to grow in the weakest ones and non-feeding progressing to wasting in the strongest ones. Neurologic signs remained the same. I believe there's a portion of the brain that doesn't form correctly, most likely the cerebellum, but pathology will tell us more.

Hopefully other breeders will also join in and provide data to help along with this worthwhile project.

You have given me much food for thought. I have been maturing a pair of '05 Sunkissed with the hopes of producing some multi-hets for future breeding projects. I also have a pair of CCCorn's multi hets from your '05 breeding of Zamboni x Gonzo. Perhaps proving whether they carry the trait recessively should be my first step in my planned projects rather than be faced with the possibility that this defect occurs in year's to come. As with any recessive trait/defect, 'knowns' can at least be channelled into other projects and then disappointment is adverted in having them suddenly show up when you least expect it.

Zammy has not been tested yet, but she will be and probably next year. If she clears, you may not need to test them. Gonzo has no reason to be carrying it. We'll soon know (over the next few years) which of ours carry and which don't. That will be a big help. Hopefully people will be open and outcoming with information so we can all learn and work to remove the gene from our breeding pool.

Thanks for the comments, I'll keep you up to date on the progress.

[Hurley]

Well, looks like I have more proof...not sure if I'm happy or sad about that, but it's always better to know the status than to not in my book.

Mattie is "S factored" for lack of a better term. She's carrying the star-gazing gene. I've got 3 hatchlings here that are gazers in this first clutch, 2 Okeetees and 1 Sunkissed. They show the exact same signs as the others I've seen, fresh out of the egg. They're perfectly normal at rest, curious, responsive. Get them excited, though, and they're uncoordinated. I'll try to get some video today or tomorrow for documentation and to give any of you who have never seen a neurologic snake an idea of what they look like.

I'm curious to see final ratios on this clutch as well as see if there's in difference in whether gazers hatch out early compared to siblings or if it's just coincidence that several of the first ones out are gazers.

This provides me with some information on my own stock, at any rate. Chances are great that Strong Bad, my male sunkissed that bred Mattie last year, is not "S factored". I've now got a proven pair of "S factored" adults that I can use to test cross any potentials in the collection and prove out their status. Since I've got several of Mattie's kids around here, I'll be busy testing for a few years, lol.

With this information, I now know that progeny out of Mattie's previous clutches have a 50% chance of carrying the gene, if it is in fact a recessive gene (which it looks more and more likely to be.) I'm going to make a post on that in its own thread to notify people of this fact so they're aware, though I consider any sunkissed decendent a possible "het". I'd rather everyone is kept up to date on everything to do with this condition. Knowledge is our best weapon.

[pugnkayak]

wow, I thought only boids had the stargazer gene....Interesting (but sad) to see it crop up in corns, but of course with all the "color" breeding/line breeding, I guess it makes some sense. I don't have any sunkissed myself, but it is a scary thought nonetheless. I've gotten the majority of my corns from stores, with a baby rescue in there too, and stores don't usually list hets or poss. hets, so who knows.....

I for one would be very interested in seeing film (if that term is still applicable in 2007) of the stargazer hatchlings, also of the few older one(s) that you still have.

Kelly

[HanneysCorns]

Originally Posted by Hurley

Well, looks like I have more proof...not sure if I'm happy or sad about that, but it's always better to know the status than to not in my book.

Mattie is "S factored" for lack of a better term. She's carrying the star-gazing gene.

Dang Connie...not a good day. But you're right, now you can identify your remaining Sunkissed line and prove them out. To know that you can now continue with your sunkissed projects and be 100% confident that you are passing on only the 'good' must be some relief to you tho as well.

I'll try to get some video today or tomorrow for documentation and to give any of you who have never seen a neurologic snake an idea of what they look like.

If you could find some time to post those tomorrow, I'd find that so interesting. I know I'd enjoy learning what to look for right out of the egg when we are dealing with any Sunkissed breeding we may be planning this year.

I'm going to make a post on that in its own thread to notify people of this fact so they're aware, though I consider any sunkissed decendent a possible "het". I'd rather everyone is kept up to date on everything to do with this condition. Knowledge is our best weapon.

Thank you for sharing this information Connie. I agree. Freely sharing this information is our best weapon. It's one of those things...identifying the problem is the first step. Hey, never fear...the messenger only brings the message...we the breeders have to accept the reality and deal with the hand we've been dealt. Luckily someone realized there were extra jokers in the pack...

Ruth