Lavas

[Noe..gr]

Hello Joe,
I was thinking the other day that I haven't seen that many pics of the lava okeetees.Where are they?I have only "collected" a handfull of pics of those and I don't think I can really tell them apart from a bunch of "normal" lavas.
Can you give me your lights?

[Cornsnakesalive]

Originally Posted by Noe..gr

Hello Joe,
I was thinking the other day that I haven't seen that many pics of the lava okeetees.Where are they?I have only "collected" a handfull of pics of those and I don't think I can really tell them apart from a bunch of "normal" lavas.
Can you give me your lights?

I am going to change the direction of this thread. This change was inspired by Noe, who caused me to think about the Lavas present history. Lava Okeetee photos have been posted of a few select hatchlings that have inspired us, but lets look at the Lavas from the wild line that still exist today and discuss where we might like to be in a few years.
I only possess 2.1 Wild Line Lavas and 1.0 Wild Line het Lava. That is it. I have begun trying to save the original line, by out crossing to a few females with different histories. The ACR has given us the opportunity to do something that has never been done before. We can track a new genes history from generation to generation that has actually just been born (Proven 2003). I may have fulfilled a dream that many of us have by discovering the Lava gene, but it is not really safe until it is in the hands of many people that care about it.

How many people have any substantial numbers of Corns that carry the Lava gene besides me? My Snake Building could burn down. Jeff Mohr has a very nice Lava collection and few people have a small very nice group of Lava gene carriers. The Wild Line of Lavas is probably the rarest, while the Ice line has the most numbers by far. From there where do we go and where have I already gone?

What are we going to call these different lines, so we can talk about them? The ACR is going to keep track of the lineage, but in order to do that we have to breed “The ACR BREEDING WAY“ or what ever the members of the Lava Club or ACR end up calling it. We have to know who the parents are of our offspring short of sperm retention or anything else, that we do not have much control over. This means that we risk the loss of entire clutches because this information is that important to us.

ICE ACR 1870, is not fertile, or very nearly so. I have begun to pay my dues breeding the ACR Way, and so will you if this is the way you choose to go. Rich Z is not a stupid man and I have a lot of respect for what he has accomplished. He breeds three males to each female and I bet he is covering his odds, so he most likely believes that 1 in 3 males are infertile or would three males cover higher odds? He never discovers it and in fact they don’t contribute to producing more infertile offspring do they?

We will discover infertile males and he will not. We will loose and entire season of production and he will not. If we breed the ACR Way and our breeders are both fertile, we will know the ancestry of our Lavas and he will not. Who is right and who is wrong? I think they are both right. Rich Z can actually keep track of his lines by the female side of the breeding, which is not that uncommon of away to keep track of lineages.

To be a member of the Lava Club you have to own a Corn that carries the Lava gene and post a photo of it here along with your real name. If you want to list more go ahead, and the more photos the better I guess, but don’t blow my land line out of the water please. I have chose to breed the ACR way, if you want to breed your Lavas by keeping track of the females lineage, go ahead, you sill are breeding Lavas, so I am not going to kick you out of the Lava Club, but the ACR will boot you. We can always start over with your work.

Noe ask me for some photos of “Lava Okeetees” That is a great place to start in our quest for naming some of the Lava lines. What are we going to call the line of Lavas that is as close to the Wild Corns from Jasper County as we can get? Will we have subsets of lines from Jasper County? For me to place the Okeetee name on a morph, I need to see an Okeetee Phase Corn, but to what degree? What do we want to call the phenotype of this Lava in these photos from the wild line (ACR 2330)? Lava Okeetee, or I have tried Wild Line Lava. What about Wild Lava, or Jasper County Lava. Will that be a subset while Good Hope Lavas is a tighter local phenotype. (Did I save my self from the local purist?) I think I can only try to maintain local phenotypes with the closest thing to wild blood that I can get. I live in California, so my perspective compared to somebody who can actually go their and collect the Corns themselves may be different. This is a Wild Line Lava X Hunt Club Okeetee breeding. Last year this exact breeding produced offspring that resembled the mother, but there were only two females in the clutch. This is my second attempt at adding numbers to my only Lava X Hunt Club line.

I believe the male’s phenotype may be what the male from the Good Hope Plantation looked like, but homo for Lava. Good Hopes may have had even less borders. (ACR 1843, Very reduced black, very orange, Wild Caught, Male, Charles Scott Pfaf, Good Hope Plantation, Jasper County, SC). Everybody I talked to who had any first hand information about the Lavas history, talked about the male they used from this local. He was not an Okeetee Phase at all, but described as having very little black and was close to solid orange and was very bright. They even referred to him as a hypo, but when I talked to one of my Lava “witnesses” on the phone, it was not the extreme Lava phenotype, but the Normal phenotype exactly as described.

Check out ACR 1851, where did that pattern come from? Could it be from the Good Hope wild caught male? Motley mimics have been produced from Lava lines and other odd patterns are seen in Lavas, especially belly patterns and side patterns. Some even mimic the Diffused Pattern.

Will we ever know which local the Lava gene ever came from? NEVER, unless some of you go to Good Hope and catch some wild caughts that are het for Lava. They would sure be nice for zeroing in on the Good Hope Lavas phenotype. The Lava gene could have came from the Good Hope male, or any one of the Hunt Club females in the original wild caught group. Each and every one of them could have been the original Wild Caught het Lava. I envision the Hunt Club Okeetee Phenotype to be like the female in this photo and I have a vision of what perhaps a Good Hope Lava may look like. This breeding would be in the direction of a line of Hunt Club Lavas or will we call them Lava Okeetees?

What about the line I created with by breeding 2012x2067? Wild Line Lava X Kathy Love Okeetee. 2067 proved to be het for Sunkissed! Isn’t that an interesting twist that only breeding the ACR Way could reveal. My attempts to perhaps produce “Jasper County” Lavas, OR Lava Okeetees, is now connected to my Het Sunkissed Lava line, by way of the Sfactor. The ACR connected this dot, and the ACR Way will grab the Sfactor by the throat and chock it OUT! I think anybody who doesn’t test Sfactor lines by the ACR Breeding Way to a KNOWN het Star Gazer is approaching any Sunkissed breeding like a fish flopping on the bank of a River. ACR Sunkissed are going to have their Sfactor known, and so will Sunkissed Lavas lines in time. Anybody can choose to test the Sunkissed that created Projects for the Sfactor, or can participate in HYPE to down play the existence of the Star Gazer gene.

Many soon to be members of the Lava Club have Sunkissed Lavas. If they happen to prove to be Sfactored, they may be like Ice 1870. His only purpose now is perhaps to take a photo of one ideal of the perfect Ice phenotype. A Sunkissed Lava het SG, is certainly photogenic, but they will also have value in chocking out the Sfactor and producing lines of Sfactor free Sunkissed Lavas. We can start new Sunkissed Lava Projects from Sfactor free Sunkissed, and we can test and prove out Adult Sfactor free Sunkissed Lavas the ACR Way.

ACR 2018 Sunkissed is DEAD. Guess which project she started? The Sunkissed Lava line, created in 2003. (2028x2018 Lava het Snow X Kathy Love Sunkissed ). I am going to have to individually test the line for the Sfactor. This test breeding (2028x 2018) tested the Lava gene for compatibility with Sunkissed? Do you realize that Lavas only proved to be a new gene to me four years ago, but to the world, much more recently. It is possible that I can test out the line next year, but realistically it may take two years, and I could possible fail to completely be able to test out the line, but I should definitely be able to test certain pairings next year. ACR 2067(Kathy Love Okeetee het Sunkissed) is more likely to get tested sooner than the Sunkissed Lava line.

Sunkissed Lava owners can be proud of owning a morph that was made possible by the original test of Lava to Sunkissed, and the line may be completely clean of the Sfactor, but we just don’t know one way or another right now, but we will. Am I a little apprehensive about the line proving to be Sfactored. Of course I am, but I do not feel any fault and I am not going to hide behind HYPE in an attempt to avoid a possible discovery of the gene in the line. It is either there or it is not.

Ice 1870 proved to me to be infertile this year, but I suspected this from last years results so I only bred him to two females. He produced 100% Slugs. Luckily, Ice 3616 was bred to all of my Lava het Ice females that were not bred for projects and his fertility was near 100% in all breedings, so Ice and Lava het Ice are looking very promising this year as are Wild Line Lavas and Okeetee het Lavas. Lava het Snow 1868 was bred to several Lavas het Amel and Amel het Lavas, so Lavas het Amel and Lavamels are looking very promising. All of the Lava Projects that are of breeding age, such as Striped Ice, Topaz, Lava Motley, Ice Motley, Lava Bloods and of course Lava Lavs and Ice Lavs are all doing very well this year. Many Lava and Ice poss hets and other poss hets will be produced from the Projects too.

Many people have reminded me about my 2007 Price list. I am confident enough about the Lava breedings this year that I can start with them and post them here for Lava Club Members to see first. I will build upon the Lava Price List to complete my 2007 List. Join the Lava Club if you qualify and help me to name the Wild Line of Lavas? All suggestions are welcome, after all, Jeff Mohr named the Lavas, so you know I am open for suggestions.

What about the other lines I have started. The Ice line seems OK, which includes Lavamels or basically any Corn that is het or homo for Lava, Amel, or Anery. Lava Lav line and Topaz Line seem OK, and of course Lava Blood line will be fine, but what about the Lines we want to create from Jasper County? Abbott’s Lavas are going to be sweet, or at least the Abbott’s het Lavas sure look NICE!

So here is ACR 2330 Wild Lava X Hunt Club Okeetee. I will post other breedings towards Lava Okeetees in the next two posts and you are now up to date on Lavas current history in my colony. How are other Lava Club members doing with their breedings this year?

[Cornsnakesalive]

Photo size reduction doesn’t do the Wild Lavas any justice. You should see them in person.

2330 is proven and he was used to breed most of the females in this line.

[Cornsnakesalive]

Here is the new kid on the block. This is his first year, so he only got two females, but he bred them several times. His borders are a little better and he is a little redder. He had a slow start in life, but he is doing very well now and after the breeding season is over I am sure he will catch up to his brother is size.

Lava Okeetee female ACR 2004, was born in 2000 has produced a clutch every year since 2002. Most were fertile, but some were not so good. She has been bred to a lot of different males over the years, mainly for Projects. She is on breeding loan with Carol this year. Any guesses as to what Project we hope to produce? No pressure Carol, I have used her heavily, and we did every thing wrong, like sending her to you this spring, and our breeding seasons were not in sink, but I hope we get lucky. I appreciate your efforts trying to create this special Project.

[SnakeCreations]

Hi Joe...

You make some very, very good points. If I've read your post correctly - I commend you on your willingness to information share and attempts to bring together community. Kudos.

I really wish I had more Lavas - what amazing color!! I obtained a group from a guy named Terry Mahorn last year - he told me that he obtained this group from you. Here are their photos. So, perhaps you know a little more than I do about them.

Rory 2005 Male Lava - my most current photo is of him grabbing a fresh killed mouse by the tail... very silly - but its the most current.

Azara 2005 Female Amel het for lava - 7 month old photo. Even in these that are het - the reds are SO saturated. She is almost identical in color and size to Edan...
Edan 2005 Male Amel het for lava - current pic
Ignatia 2005 Female Classic het for amel and lava - current pic
Souzan 2005 Female Classic het for diffusion and lava - 7 month old pic - she's a little lighter now - she's an extremely pretty Normal.

Zeki 2006 Male Normal het for diffusion and lava (purchased from Michelle)- his borders get darker and darker with each shed.

Not much for ya Joe... but a start.

-Tonya

[Corns.nl]

Joe, since i have only two '06 Lava's (Ice ph LAvender and Lave het. Anery) from you and 2.2. '06 het. Ice, Pewter, can i join the Lava club? Please let me know what you need me to do for that.

Arjan

[robin h]

As you know, Robin Teeninga and I (rrsnakes) possess a few lava's all coming from you...

1.1 05 het. lava bloodred ph anery
2.0 06 anery het. lava
1.2 06 lava ph sunkissed
1.0 06 sunkissed lava
It is not that much, but we will breed quite a few hets in 2008 I think, and I hope to breed some homozygous lava's too


Regards, Robin Heinen

[Caroline]

I have some lava and het lava myself.


First I have Bo: lava het anery, ACR 2846 EDIT: Found out he is also het amel
Father: ACR 1997
Mother: ACR 200

I bred this male to 3 females this year.


I also have a male het lava, lavender, anery: ACR 2007
Father: ACR 2010
Mother: ACR 1858

And 4 females anery 66% het lava, lavender: ACR 883, 884, 885, 886
Father: ACR 2007
Mother: ACR 2006
Your ID 5-47 for these 4

Hope this help.

[MohrSnakes]

Joe,

Nice post and great details. It is true, I do have decent collection of lavas but most of them have been bred into other project lines. In fact, in the beginning I concentrated most of my effort on breeding out to other projects and produced very few lavas. I still tend to do that. Doing that, however, has put me very behind in producing lavas but I do plan to produce some nicer morphs in the next couple of years.

I started with 1 lava and 3 hets. That's it. In 01 I produced a few lavas and they didn't make it...I chalk it up to some inexperience and inbreeding. (Although I produced my first corn clutches in 98, these lavas were a bit tricky ) In 2002 I gained a little more knowledge and took a lot more time and that is where my lava line really started. Unfortunately, I also moved 3 times between the time the lavas were produced in 02 and 05. As a result, time was precious and I ended up selling a few of the cool looking lavas (then unknown as a new gene) and most of the hets. Furthermore, the ones that were holdbacks were not on ideal feeding regimes and/or conditions and most of my females did not breed until 05 and even then they had smallish clutches....if I remember correctly in the 10 range or so. Furthermore, every female was used for a project and it was only lava males X het lava females that were used to produce lavas. Needless to say, I only produced a few lavas in 05 and a few more in 06 from straight lava lines.

I have also produced a handful of lavas and hets from the lines I got from Joe. During the hypo testing phase, he sent me a het male and between then and now I've acquired a few lavas, ice, and some lavamels from Joe. As a result, I've been able to cross my line into his--I don't know if you can call it a line since they all came from Joe but my animals all come from my original 1.3. Due to his help, I've produced a handful of ice ghost from his ice to my hets as well as some lavas. I have sold a few but I also kept a good bit. As a result, I hope my lava collection will only get stronger and with the multiple new projects I started in 05 and 06 I hope to start seeing the fruits of that labor over the next couple of years. I also have held back a good bit more since my facility was complete in mid 2004. I have a lot of 05 and 06 holdbacks!

I assume the Wild Line lavas are those that can have BOTH parents traced back to the original WC animals? If it that is true, I believe I have a few left from my original 02 breedings of my 1.3. However, I lost a male AND a female in the past 6 months so I may be at only females now from that line. I'll have to check my building, but I believe that is the way the ball fell around here. If that is indeed the case, I may need to see if I can get an "original" from you or I'll need to breed it to one of the few WC animals I maintain for this reason. I have a nice male in mind that isn't okeetee so much but has the nice gray sides. Wonder what that would do to the lavas? He is ACR 3326. That may be one way to go next year?

As far as current years plans with the lava.....

I've got eggs for ice X hypo lavender, ice X blood het anery, ice motley hets, lava motley hets, lava X charcoal, lava X miami, Lava het anery X anerycaramel, lava butter motley hets, lava lavender hets and I believe a few others. Unfortunately, some of the clutches were duds and a few were small so I will be real lucky to produce a topaz or lava lavender this year....but next year should be the year.
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