Lavas

[kitty]

Originally Posted by kitty

Being too new, I'll wait for others to suggest names for the Wild Line. ...

Okay, I lied.

How 'bout "Heritage Lavas" for those that can be traced to a Wild Caught on at least one side of their tree? "Pure Heritage" could be used to distinguish from one that traces back to Wild Caught on both sides of the tree.

Wow. That sounds kinda' snooty - "pure heritage" ... forget that one.

[Noe..gr]

I'm so happy I pulled that trigger...

I'd love to be in the lava club Joe,since I've made my order...

"Wild line lavas" goes better for me as a name to describe the line.

[Cornsnakesalive]

Originally Posted by Corns.nl

Joe, since i have only two '06 Lava's (Ice ph LAvender and Lave het. Anery) from you and 2.2. '06 het. Ice, Pewter, can i join the Lava club? Please let me know what you need me to do for that.

Arjan

Hi Arjan,
I am not sure where the “Lava Club” will go in the future, but for now it is going to be contained in this thread. To be a member of the Lava Club for now, the only requirements are that you own a Lava, post a photo of at least one Het Lava here, and post your real name in the post, so I can begin to perhaps start a list of Lava Club members.

Lava Club members do not really have any special rights or anything like that for now. It is more for me to know who owns Corns that carry the Lava gene and perhaps who is more serious about helping to develop the Lavas genes history in the future. This thread is still open for discussion of the Lava gene by anybody that is interested in Lavas, even if they do not qualify to be a member. Their ideas and discussions are very welcome.

Although I have good records of my Lava Stock, when they leave here, I haven’t kept track of where they have gone and if my clutch numbers are not retained by the new owners, I can not really help with any ancestry when requested to do so. I believe one addition to the Lava Club Membership requirements in the future when we go to the next phase, may be to own an ACR registered Corn that carries the Lava gene. I think this may be important because it will certainly help to keep track of Lava gene carriers, and if I am willing to registered all of my breeders for the WORLD to see and scrutinize, then perhaps this requirement should be shared. We can hide special projects for awhile until they reach breeding size if we chose to do so, but at that time, they will need to be registered to breed the ACR way.

Anybody who is interested in Corn Snake genetics will be interested in learning about Lavas, but to go the next step and decide that you want the Lava gene in your colony and to make plans to reproduce Lavas, even from a Het to Het breeding, shows to me, that you are more than just interested in Lavas, you care about the gene itself in one way or another. Even from one Het parent, Lavas can be reproduced in time from 50% poss hets, especially from males. All Lava Projects are special, because most all of them will out cross the line and normally strengthen it.

Most of my Projects will have to be in-bred to recover the Target of the Project, but I would like to promote Projects that come together from different lines with the same genetics in both that can create the Target Morph. This goal will be easier to reach if we can acquire breeding stock from others with similar Projects, so communication is vital. There is nothing like out crossing AND being able to create a Target Morph at the same time.

[Cornsnakesalive]

Originally Posted by robin h

As you know, Robin Teeninga and I (rrsnakes) possess a few lava's all coming from you...

1.1 05 het. lava bloodred ph anery
2.0 06 anery het. lava
1.2 06 lava ph sunkissed
1.0 06 sunkissed lava
It is not that much, but we will breed quite a few hets in 2008 I think, and I hope to breed some homozygous lava's too


Regards, Robin Heinen

Are you kidding, of course I want you in the Lava Club. One thing that I want to make sure everybody knows about me, is that I respect and appricate everybody’s interest, goals and plans for the Lava gene, whether you own a single Lava gene carrier or many.

Many of you are just getting started breeding Corns and some of us are the rare breeders that have stuck it out for the long run like myself. Who knows who will be the future bigger breeders of Corn Snakes, and ALL of us are not interested in having HUGE colonies of Corns. Most of us have jobs and other interests. Every breeder of Lavas, even those who only have a pair of Lava gene carries are promoters of the Lava genes future, especially if your Lavas are ACR registered.

Something as simple as a good idea for a name of one of our phenotypes, or new discoveries are very possible from a single breeding. There is a lot to learn about the Lava line. I suspect their may be some pattern genes that have yet to be discovered in the Lava group, and a single breeding may be the key, that helps us go from suspected to KNOWN, especially if we work TOGETHER. One breeding here, and one breeding there adds up, and soon we will have a lot of data to compare and perhaps come to some conclusions that would not otherwise be possible

[Cornsnakesalive]

Originally Posted by MohrSnakes

It is true, I do have decent collection of lavas but most of them have been bred into other project lines. In fact, in the beginning I concentrated most of my effort on breeding out to other projects and produced very few lavas. I still tend to do that. Doing that, however, has put me very behind in producing lavas but I do plan to produce some nicer morphs in the next couple of years.

This is still what I am doing as well, I just have a few years head start. I produced very few actual Lava Morphs compared to my production of Project hets. I am not sure if anybody really has a good feel for how many Lavas actually exist, but there are far fewer than you would first think. How many generations have gone by since we proved Lavas to be a new gene? Only two, and that is if we go with two year olds being used as breeders. Add to this that I have been male heavy in almost every Lava Clutch that I have ever produced, and the production numbers are still very low. Add to that, that I have always bred the ACR way, so disappointments and loss of entire clutches have happened to me each and every year. I still do not own an adult Ice female, because I have let them go to fill orders with deposits in the past and female numbers have been very limited. I am breeding Ice X Lava het Ice to produced ALL of my Ice and Lava het Ice. Some Ice are produced in some Projects, but very few.

Originally Posted by MohrSnakes

Furthermore, the ones that were holdbacks were not on ideal feeding regimes and/or conditions and most of my females did not breed until 05 and even then they had smallish clutches....if I remember correctly in the 10 range or so. Furthermore, every female was used for a project and it was only lava males X het lava females that were used to produce lavas.

This has been my exact situation as well. Many people will find this amazing, but when you begin to get a larger collection going, this is perhaps Normal. The two “Heritage” Lavas, or Wild Line Lava males that I have now were stuck in the corner of one of my racks and they were not fed on a schedule that would get them up to size fast. In fact, 2331 was a slow started and was far behind 2330, but once he got going, I could have had him caught up by now, but I had Old Man Lava, ACR 1849 which was my original Lava that was born in 1994. He was a great breeder and took care of the females well. Last year, he died in brumation, so I was forced to try to use ACR 2330 to cover several females and he was not even brumated, and my production last year in the “Heritage” line, was poor. You may think that since the Old Man was born in 1994, that he could have produced a lot of offspring, but I was not into Corns the way I am today. They were a side project back then, and I just did not produce very many, and the ones I did, were sold at shows, and there are very few of them in existence today, or at least I have no idea where they are.

Originally Posted by MohrSnakes

I assume the Wild Line lavas are those that can have BOTH parents traced back to the original WC animals? If it that is true, I believe I have a few left from my original 02 breedings of my 1.3. However, I lost a male AND a female in the past 6 months so I may be at only females now from that line.

This has been my definition of the Wild Line of Lavas, where both sides of their breeding can be traced back to Wild Caughts. The “Heritage” line, could be used for the original line, but in-breeding is the only way to keep that line true. With careful “culling”, this line maybe able to be maintained, but I am not sure if that is possible today. My plans for ACR 2004, is to breed her to ACR 2330 in 2008, if she survives another year. How many years can a female produce if she is bred every year? I am not sure if we really know, but I bet her live expectance is not as long as it would be in the wild if years were skipped and so forth and eliminating death by a predator as a factor.
How much proof are we going to require to say our Wild Line Lavas go back to Wild Caughts on both sides? I will never engage in a “True” Okeetee debate again for any length of time, but I respect others opinions of how wild some lines are. If a Corn is crawling across a road or found under a board, I certainly consider them “Wild Caught”. The HYPE, I see about the release of captive bred Corns in the wild, especially near the Hunt Club, to try to somehow reduce the value of Wild Caught Blood, or Hunt Club Okeetees, is an extremely week argument, that is HYPE in its purest form.

The Hunt Club Okeetee which was bred to 2330, is from a Wild Line and is registered as such. I believe if the ACR lineage on both sides of Lavas go back to wild caught, then perhaps this is a good definition of Wild Line Lavas. How about the Abbott’s breedings and Kathy Love Okeetee breedings that I have done? There are missing links in these lines, but I would definitely consider both of those lines to be Jasper County Okeetees. We could go with Jasper County Lavas, or just Lava Okeetees for them, if they are of the Okeetee Phase. We have to consider that the ACR did not exist in the past, so word of mouth lineages are all that we have from many lines. I have heard of things that some people say about Kathy’s Okeetees, but until I hear if from Kathy herself, it is only rumors. As far as I am concerned, her line was created with Jasper County stock, and the Abbott’s line was started with a Wild Caught Okeetee X Kathy Love Okeetee. I have made contact with Lee, and I need to call him to get more info on his line. He told me in an email, that the history of the Abbott’s line is extensive and he wanted to talk about it rather that try to write it down. I actually believe that I have meet Lee many years ago when I went to one of the first Orlando Shows.

I think we have the opportunity to produce Wild Line Morphs other that just Lavas, such as crosses with the Frase Bloods, or perhaps a Wild Caught Anery that we sometimes see available, and there may be others. I think we can get close with the Cinders maybe, but we may have to use a Rich Z Cinder. I think I would consider a Cinder from Rich Z from a wild line, even if he uses three males on the females as long as all of the males came from the original line as well. Wild Line Morphs may be of interest to some people, but for the most part this is not the focus of the entire Corn Snake industry.

[Corns.nl]

Originally Posted by Cornsnakesalive

Hi Arjan,
I am not sure where the “Lava Club” will go in the future, but for now it is going to be contained in this thread. To be a member of the Lava Club for now, the only requirements are that you own a Lava, post a photo of at least one Het Lava here, and post your real name in the post, so I can begin to perhaps start a list of Lava Club members.

Lava Club members do not really have any special rights or anything like that for now. It is more for me to know who owns Corns that carry the Lava gene and perhaps who is more serious about helping to develop the Lavas genes history in the future. This thread is still open for discussion of the Lava gene by anybody that is interested in Lavas, even if they do not qualify to be a member. Their ideas and discussions are very welcome.

Although I have good records of my Lava Stock, when they leave here, I haven’t kept track of where they have gone and if my clutch numbers are not retained by the new owners, I can not really help with any ancestry when requested to do so. I believe one addition to the Lava Club Membership requirements in the future when we go to the next phase, may be to own an ACR registered Corn that carries the Lava gene. I think this may be important because it will certainly help to keep track of Lava gene carriers, and if I am willing to registered all of my breeders for the WORLD to see and scrutinize, then perhaps this requirement should be shared. We can hide special projects for awhile until they reach breeding size if we chose to do so, but at that time, they will need to be registered to breed the ACR way.

Anybody who is interested in Corn Snake genetics will be interested in learning about Lavas, but to go the next step and decide that you want the Lava gene in your colony and to make plans to reproduce Lavas, even from a Het to Het breeding, shows to me, that you are more than just interested in Lavas, you care about the gene itself in one way or another. Even from one Het parent, Lavas can be reproduced in time from 50% poss hets, especially from males. All Lava Projects are special, because most all of them will out cross the line and normally strengthen it.

Most of my Projects will have to be in-bred to recover the Target of the Project, but I would like to promote Projects that come together from different lines with the same genetics in both that can create the Target Morph. This goal will be easier to reach if we can acquire breeding stock from others with similar Projects, so communication is vital. There is nothing like out crossing AND being able to create a Target Morph at the same time.

Offcourse i'm very interested in outcrossing and starting projects for new morphs! I'll even put the one on one breedings aside to produce interesting hets for anything!
The tenth clutch has been laid (caramel motley x sunkissed), when every clutch i've planned for this year has been layed i'll post a thread that reviews them all.
To come back at the Lava story, i'll make some fresh pics of every animal carrying the lava gene this week and put them here in your thread.
Did you get my pm's by the way?

Arjan

[Cornsnakesalive]

Is there a Striped Ice in this clutch?

This group did very well last year, and I produced enough eggs to produce a few Striped Ice last year, but all I got were Ice and Striped Anerys in the clutches along with some Anerys of course. I held onto a couple Ice poss het Striped males and most of the female Striped Anery poss het Ice last year and with this years production, Striped Ice will eventually be produced.

I will be keeping my fingers crossed for a couple this year. I think the Stripe version of Ice, may only be rivaled by Ice Bloods. Most Ice have quite a bit of blue on their head pattern, and I can see that this may be exaggerated in the Striped Ice or Ice Bloods. They can have a bald blue head pattern if they want to, I sure won’t complain.

[Corns.nl]

Wow it sure would be great to see a striped Ice hatch!!!!!!!!

Arjan

[MohrSnakes]

I hope you get one....can't wait to see what they look like. If you don't...I get my chances next year!