creamsicle cross?

a_god_s · 08-30-07, 12:35 AM

When I first got my cream I didn't realize it was a hybrid. I've seen some beautiful babies. (Thanks Tom Thompson for posting his pics and everyone else with their rootbeers). Here's my question, do the pairing work like the corns? Is there a list that describes what the results are from particular pairings?
Is there anything that is prohibited? I know some people don't like the mixing of types.
Any suggestions for my boy's potential "girlfriend?
I look forward hearing from you hybrid owners.

from the home of beer - Milwaukee!!

jaxom1957 · 08-30-07, 01:53 AM

Originally Posted by a_god_s

When I first got my cream I didn't realize it was a hybrid. I've seen some beautiful babies. (Thanks Tom Thompson for posting his pics and everyone else with their rootbeers). Here's my question, do the pairing work like the corns? Is there a list that describes what the results are from particular pairings?

Whether it's a hybrid or an intergrade is a matter of opinion. I'm in the intergrade group. Yes, pairings work the same. Just substitute "creamsicle" for "amel". Normal emory/corns are called Rootbeers, amel emory/corns are creamsicles, hypo emory/corns are Crimsons. Snow emory/corns are creamsicles. Those are the only morphs I've seen. I've yet to see an anery emory/corns, but I'm already thinking they should be Peppers, as the frosting that often accompanies the intergrade would look like the snake rolled in black pepper.

My first corn was/is my very large creamsicle male, Lucius. I also have a rootbeer het creamsicle female that he'll be breeding in the spring, and 2.2 creamsicle stripe/cube 2007s. Creamsicles are the prettiest of the "orange" corn snakes.

**vanderkm** · 08-30-07, 04:03 PM

Congrats on a beautiful creamsicle and thanks for sharing pictures. As you say, often people do not know that a creamsicle is distinct from a corn snake - they frequently have such a high percentage of cornsnake genetics in them that they look very similar and can be impossible to tell in any way that they are not corns. The purists in the world of corns perfer that creams be identified as such, so that the emoryi bloodlines are not introduced into 'pure' lines. There is nothing that is prohibited, but you should be aware that there is a bias against creams and related lines from some people with 'pure' corns. Many of us believe that there has been repeated and frequent infusion of emoryi and perhaps other ratsnake genetics into corn lines, but I am always careful to ensure customers know the genetic makeup of the snakes I produce. This is where the ACRegistry is an advantage - it is all recorded.

There is a complete separation of corns and emoryi (great plains ratsnakes) into different species that is, I believe, currently accepted and so while they used to be part of the same species, the crosses would now be considered hybrids (cross between two species). They certainly are closely related species - but I think that anyone who has worked with the pure lines and the first generation hybrids would confirm that while they are closely related, the parent species are very different from each other and there is strong hybrid vigor present in the crosses - they are nothing like corn snakes. They typically will interbreed without any trickery that is needed to produce hybrids from species that are in different genus groups though.

Originally Posted by jaxom1957

................ Normal emory/corns are called Rootbeers, amel emory/corns are creamsicles, hypo emory/corns are Crimsons. Snow emory/corns are creamsicles. Those are the only morphs I've seen. I've yet to see an anery emory/corns, but I'm already thinking they should be Peppers, as the frosting that often accompanies the intergrade would look like the snake rolled in black pepper...............

Just one correction on the names - when hypo A is present in an emoryi/corn they are called Cinnamons, not crimsons.

Snow emoryi/corns have been called snowsicles and anerys have been termed fudgsicles - to stay in line with the naming and keep them distinct from pure corns. Frosting is more typical of crosses between corns and grey ratsnake (that produced the 'frosted' creamsicle)than emoryi/corns - the color density tends to be quite thick and consistent in emoryi/corns.

Other colors and patterns are being developed in emoryi/corns - as with pure corns the names of new varieties may take time to establish and become familiar. Crosses with sunglow corns have produced creamsicles without any white borders and these have been called both sunsicles and harvest corns. Selective breeding has produced lines that are 'reverse okeetee creams' and 'yellow' creamsicles (see South Mountain for some nice examples). Stripes and motleys of cream and rootbeer have been developed as well. We hatched ghosts last year - I have seen these referred to as 'ghost rootbeer' but it doesn't flow very well as a name - and they are not particularly distinctive - will have to see how these grow up.

We produced buttercremes this year for the first time (homozygous caramel) as well as caramel rootbeer (name suggestion was 'gingerbeer') and we also produced what appears to be diffused (bloodred) pattern from some of our high emoryi line. We are going with the suggested names of bloodorange and bloodroot for these at this point - don't know if they have been documented anywhere else.

In terms of a choice for your creamsicle - it depends on whether you are interested in pursuing some new combinations or want to stick with enhancing the creamsicle coloration that you have - certainly a creamsicle mate is always a good choice. The rootbeers that are het for cream are lovely in appearance, and if you could get one of those that would give you both rootbeers and creams in a clutch. A striped or motley is one of the most beautiful snakes around I think - so that is what I would choose - nice to get the pattern influence in there.

best of luck in your choice and look forward to seeing more pics of your cream,

mary v.

**midnightline** · 08-30-07, 04:15 PM

hypo emory/corns are Crimsons

What Mary said... Crimsons are hypo Miamis, btw.

**Tom Thompson** · 08-30-07, 08:27 PM

Great Looking Creamcicle! Mary has pretty much summed it up for you. Great to see I wasn't the only one wondering abut this new form of Crimson!

I've bred the Ultramel gene into my Striped Buttercream. Got some really cool looking ones can't wait for the F2s!

jaxom1957 · 08-31-07, 02:51 AM

Originally Posted by vanderkm

Just one correction on the names - when hypo A is present in an emoryi/corn they are called Cinnamons, not crimsons.

Ack! My brain said Cinnamon, my fingers typed Crimson. I've had Miami on the brain all week, as I'm expecting a pair from Carol in the next few weeks. My bad!

Snow emoryi/corns have been called snowsicles and anerys have been termed fudgsicles - to stay in line with the naming and keep them distinct from pure corns.

Excuse me while I lose my lunch - FUDGESICLES???

**Dionythicus** · 08-31-07, 03:33 AM

In keeping with the softdrink theme, we might as well call them Black Cows (Coke and ice cream). I was actually thinking of calling the anerys Cola corns, though.

Draybar · 08-31-07, 10:10 PM

I obviously go with rootbeer, creamsicle and cinnamon and although I don't have any yet, I will use snowsicle ( I like it) but sorry.....I can't go with fudgesicle...nope...just doesn't work for me.

hmm anery corn/emoryi?
It would be interesting to get an accepted name for these.
Some people don't really care for the names but as they become more widely used they become synonymous with emoryi/corn crosses and it is the quickest easiest way to make the emoryi blood known.

Yes, you can simple call them anery corn/emoryi crosses but that is a lot for beginners to hold on to.
Joe goes to his first show and sees this neat little grey "corn" snake.
He decides to buy it and the breeder tells him it is an anery corn/emoryi cross.
Well, when Joe hears this he makes a mental note to remember but in truth it is absolutely foreign to him.
Well, Joe goes home. sets up his new little buddie and goes about his business. A few days or even weeks later he finds a site like this or happens to meet a fellow corn snake owner and relates that he bought an anery "something or other" at a show recently.
The other person instantly recognises anery and explains to Joe that he has an anery corn and tells him that anery is short for anerythristic and that an anerythristic corn lacks red pigment resulting in a grey to brown snake with saddles running a little to a lot darker then the background.
"Wow", Joe says. "that definitely sounds like my snake, I guess anery it is"
so, now it is an anery corn and not an anery corn/emoryi cross.
A stretch?
A little too vivid of an imagination?
No, I seen it happen.
I have heard almost the exact same conversation a couple of times and have seen it played out on the forums, too.
Not with anery but with amel and hypo. so it does happen.
with names like creamsicle, rootbeer or cinnamon even if a person doesn't know what it means the second they get on line or ask a knowledgeable hobbyist they find out they are a mix.

**Dionythicus** · 08-31-07, 11:21 PM

Very true. I've had that happen, myself. Years ago I bought a creamsicle male and had no clue what that meant. Looked around online and found out that it meant he was a hybrid. Although it didn't say hybrid, or emoryi/corn cross when I bought him, I don't think that he was mislabeled. I just needed to get an education.

FunkyRes · 08-31-07, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by Dionythicus

Very true. I've had that happen, myself. Years ago I bought a creamsicle male and had no clue what that meant. Looked around online and found out that it meant he was a hybrid. Although it didn't say hybrid, or emoryi/corn cross when I bought him, I don't think that he was mislabeled. I just needed to get an education.

I personally think breeders should make it clear.
I like the way SMR does it - they list the scientific name which makes hybrids/crosses very clear.

IE-

Creamsicle Corn Snake

Pantherophis guttatus x Pantherophis emoryi

There is no question to anyone looking to buy from him that they are, in fact, a hybrid.

The scientific name and common name should both be listed for any animal for sale, and they should be accurate. Like what Don does on his website.

This goes for pet shops and shows as well.