emoryi blood all around! - Page 2

**Dionythicus** · 11-29-07, 03:29 PM

As much as I love hybrids, I have avoided the ultra gene for just that reason. I'm merely biding my time 'til we see the giant debate about "what is pure?" again, only this time in regards to grey rat instead of emoryi. It may be a few years yet, but by that time the ultra gene will have been introduced into so many corn morphs that no one will know for sure. Other than Golddusts and a few Ice, I haven't been impressed with the ultra effect on anything.

AzCwgrlinvegas · 11-29-07, 04:30 PM

haha.. funny isn't it? kind of like the "Labradoodles" in the dog breeding circles... I haven't gotten into the emoryi crosses, still way new at the whole herp hobby, but I have purchased a male rosy rat and a female black rat that hubby wants to pair up with some of our corns... shoule be interesting in a few more years... besides, mutts are just as lovable as purebreds

**vanderkm** · 11-30-07, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by scotchy1ca

Actually that was Mary (Corns of La Creme) who deserves the credit for that one. She is the breeder and very nice and knowledgeable lady. I'll buy again from her anyday.

Scott

Thanks Scott - glad you are happy with her - I expect she will turn out to be quite pretty.

We proposed the name 'gingerbeer' for caramel rootbeers here this spring when we produced them for the first time - I think it is going to fit very well with how they look at maturity.

I am a huge fan of emoryi/corns - love the added size and vigor that emoryi seems to impart and the difference in color that emoryi gives to the corn morphs has been quite stunning. I love the variety we have seen in cinnamons and we are watching the 'blood-orange' and 'blood-root' babies from this year closely - seem to be coloring up quite nicely so far - have to get some pictures now that they have a bit more size on them.

I am possibly planning some ultracremes for 2008 - so it will be interesting to see how the ultra works with emoryi influence. Most of what I have seen and read so far leads me to believe that there is grey ratsnake influence in those lines. My ultramel (het car) male is lined up with a 50% emoryi rootbeer female - and perhaps to a lower percentage creamsicle girl as well - bonus that she is also het caramel, so maybe some of the emoryi/corn version of golddusts from that one.

mary v.

**Hurley** · 11-30-07, 11:09 PM

Not that I give a tinker's rip about whether the ultra gene originated solely in the gray rat line or not (because no one species "owns" a gene, it's a mutation not a species defining characteristic...amel has popped up spontaneously across the board independently, it does happen), but in case Joe isn't around to defend the gene, Lava is not the same as Ultramel and did originate from "pure" (other people's fantasy, I don't personally believe in the word in relation to a species...I'm too Darwinian) wild-caught Okeetee stock.

Just wanted to clarify as

Other than Golddusts and a few Ice, I haven't been impressed with the ultra effect on anything.

implies that Ice are ultras, which they aren't. They're lava anerys, no relation other than that both genes seem to cause a version of reduction in black pigmentation.

Back to the hibird/antihibird/don't believe in hibird discussion...

**Carol** · 12-01-07, 12:57 AM

Well, I like emoryi and emoryi crosses for many reasons but.... Emoryi simply DESTROYS the wonderful red coloration that exists in most my favorite morphs. I just love RED morphs, followed closely by the silver morphs.... which explains my love of a good Miami, it has both. I'd personally just hate to see emoryi ruin Bloodreds and Miamis. I do agree it would go pretty well with the Caramel morphs though.

TandJ · 12-01-07, 01:57 AM

Emoryi simply DESTROYS the wonderful red coloration that exists in most my favorite morphs. I just love RED morphs, followed closely by the silver morphs.... which explains my love of a good Miami, it has both.

Didn't destroy the Candy Cane lines... Of course the Candy Canes that seem to be valued more are the ones with the orange saddles.. I believe The Queen of corns used Emoryi Blood in her Candy Cane lines to clean up back gorund colour and add some size and girth to those animals..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

TandJ · 12-01-07, 02:11 AM

Well I am not hear to convince you of anything but the Ultra "hypo" effect that resides on the same locus as amel came from grey Rats. Granted many of these have been bred back into corns, time and time again. If its carrying the untra gene it still has grey rat in it. 99.9% corn 0.1% grey rat is still a hybrid

Of course your trying to convince me.. Why else would you have posted the above.. ???? That is the only thing I could possibly disagree about that post..

The point being, is so what if there is .1% of grey rat in the corn.. How many corns exist out there with Emoryi or even Cali King snake in it? We don't know, nor can we prove it eithier way.. Who has gone through the effort to map the corn snake gnome? No one.. Of course there has been a few scientific name changes in the last few years as well.. Kistachie is just a cousin and and Upper Keys is just a corn.. Pffffttt...

I have no idea anymore of what a pure corn is or isn't...

Regards... Tim of T and J

Mysterry · 12-01-07, 03:30 AM

Originally Posted by TandJ

Didn't destroy the Candy Cane lines... Of course the Candy Canes that seem to be valued more are the ones with the orange saddles.. I believe The Queen of corns used Emoryi Blood in her Candy Cane lines to clean up back gorund colour and add some size and girth to those animals..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

I got my candy canes from Rich Z and he used selectively bred miami's to get his candy canes. Now if i found out there was some monkey busness there i would not be happy as thats not the way they were sold to me but i sure would'nt love em any less. Id want to take a newspaper to Rich tho for lieing to me. lol
Like others have said truth in labeling is very important cause i would'nt know a hybred from a smmybred.

TandJ · 12-01-07, 12:46 PM

Mystery.. Description from Rich's site.. Of course a lot of folks seem to negate the fact that a lot of corns have Emoryi blood in their history amongst other things..

This has been probably the longest corn snake project I have ever embarked on. Back in the mid '70s I decided to get some Miami phase corn snakes with silver gray background coloration with the intention of breeding amelanism into them to produce a corn snake that would be completely white with bright red blotches. My logic at the time was that breeding amelanism into these gray ground colored animals will produce white backgrounds and brilliant red blotches. Twenty-five years later, I am almost where I want to be with this project, but not quite. And the results are still not predictable. The orange coloration has been EXTREMELY hard to remove from the ground color. What I didn't realize 24 years ago was that the gray ground color of the Miami phase corn snakes apparently overlays the orange coloration, not replacing it as I had thought. So what was supposed to be a quick and easy way to get to what I had in mind has been a painstaking and slow process done with incremental steps via selective breeding. One breakthrough I had several years ago is a male amelanistic that came from a completely unrelated blood line provide me with the genetic material needed to help eliminate this orange contamination. I have noted that the majority of Candy Canes that have him as an ancestor and noticeably whiter in color in the background. However he appears to have introduced another variable into the mix. Some will have washed out centers in the dorsal blotches, almost forming a ring of red surrounding a center of coloration almost matching the ground color. This type of appearance has been showing up in several other cultivars and has sometimes been referred to as a 'frosted' look. I am tempted to separate these lines into uniquely named cultivars, but I feel it is too early as far as predictability goes to consider seriously doing that at this time. Refinements, of course, are still in progress, but I'm getting closer every year to getting the ideal pure red and pure white corn snake. One other variable in the mix is the intensity of the red blotches. Sometimes the red can be a more orangish-red coloration and not the fire-engine red I am striving for. At this point, I don't know what the links are in the genetic stock to control this and make it more predictable.

The first time I ever heard the name 'Candy Cane' was in reference to some amelanistic corn snakes being worked with by Kevin Enge. Also, Bill & Kathy Love were also working on a similar project at the time. Around 1986 a bunch of corn snakes from Glen Slemmer came into Hogtown Herps in Gainesville, FL, and Kevin had the pick of the pack. Nothing is really certain about the genetic lineage of this group of animals, but some of the red on white animals were spectacular and Kevin coined the name 'Candy Cane' based on this original look. Although Glen Slemmer was well known for creating the original emoryi crosses with corns, none of the animals were apparently labeled, so there was no way to determine what any of the individual animals actually were. Certainly not ALL of his corn snakes were involved in the hybrid crosses, so some surely must have been pure corn snakes. Some of Glen Slemmers stock also went to Bill & kathy Love as well as Mark Bell around the same time. I believe Kathy Love mentioned infusing emoryi stock into their Candy Cane project in an article in Reptiles Magazine several years ago, but I'm not certain when this took place in relation to the animals they received from Glen Slemmer's stock.
Please bear in mind that this is still a project in progress and not all of the Candy Canes will have the orange completely eliminated. The orange sometimes will sneak in later in life to become exposed on the back of the neck and forefront of the body in some specimens. The real problem is that it is pretty nearly impossible to predict how the babies will turn into as adults. I've seen spectacular pure white babies get a substantial orange wash to the background at maturiry, and then on the other hand seen rather lack luster babies have nearly pure white backgrounds the posterior three fourths of the body. So understandably, I do NOT guarantee how they will turn out, but the averages are increasing every year to get the ones with completely white backgrounds to dominate in each clutch.

Regards.. Tim of T and J

Mysterry · 12-01-07, 04:17 PM

Yes i had read that back in 05 when i got my 2. That explains where the term "candy cane" come from. Rich had already been using miami's for 6 years in his candy cane project at that time.
If there was anything infused 25 years ago i frankly could give a hoot. I still love my candy canes no matter what. Sides it saves me from going to Florida and boxing Rich with a news papper.