emoryi blood all around! - Page 3

**Carol** · 12-01-07, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by TandJ

Didn't destroy the Candy Cane lines... Of course the Candy Canes that seem to be valued more are the ones with the orange saddles.. I believe The Queen of corns used Emoryi Blood in her Candy Cane lines to clean up back gorund colour and add some size and girth to those animals..
Regards.. Tim of T and J

I think it did. It's rare I find a Candy Cane with satisfactory red.

**Dionythicus** · 12-01-07, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Hurley

Just wanted to clarify as
implies that Ice are ultras, which they aren't. They're lava anerys, no relation other than that both genes seem to cause a version of reduction in black pigmentation.

Back to the hibird/antihibird/don't believe in hibird discussion...

You're right about the Ice being lava, I mixed up my names. I couldn't remember what the ultra anerys were being called, if they have a trade name yet. I love the lava gene and what it does to the black.

On to the hybrid discussion...

TandJ · 12-01-07, 09:14 PM

I think it did. It's rare I find a Candy Cane with satisfactory red.

I agree with you Carol.. It is hard to find a Candy Cane with a nice intense and contrasty red and white, like the name implies..

If there was anything infused 25 years ago i frankly could give a hoot. I still love my candy canes no matter what. Sides it saves me from going to Florida and boxing Rich with a news papper.

Thats my point.. Whats the point of getting all nutty.. Most corns are a fairly high percentage of corn in the hobby, and well there is likely a small portion of genetics that is probably non corn.. Black Rat, Cali King, Baird's, Yellow Rat, Grey Rat, Pueb, even Gopher/Bull snake mixed in corns for who knows how long..

Of course, you would give a hoot if it was 3 or four generations back wouldn't you? Whats the point if it was a few generations back or 25yrs ago.. ?? Its still there....

No reason not to like your animals anyways, and no reason to say you should whap someone with a news paper like they are some dog eithier..

Excellent thread..

Regards... Tim of T and J

TandJ · 12-01-07, 09:22 PM

Well I am not hear to convince you of anything but the Ultra "hypo" effect that resides on the same locus as amel came from grey Rats. Granted many of these have been bred back into corns, time and time again. If its carrying the untra gene it still has grey rat in it. 99.9% corn 0.1% grey rat is still a hybrid

Gosh I didn't know that and I have a pair of ultra caramels. And to be fair my creamsicles got me started again in my lifelong love of corns. I try to keep some of each type as I do not want us to loose the pure genes but I am by no means a purist. I just go for what I love. I have seen some awesome crosses that I wouldn't mind getting down the road.

Personally, I think things are blown completely out of porportion with the Ultramel side.. Ultramels have been around for quite a while, and it was not until recently that people started taking issue with them.. Ethier way, buy what you like, in this way it is acceptable to be self centred.. Heck I am pretty self centred when it comes to me picking what I like in my snakes..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

Mysterry · 12-02-07, 02:39 AM

Originally Posted by TandJ

Thats my point.. Whats the point of getting all nutty.. Most corns are a fairly high percentage of corn in the hobby, and well there is likely a small portion of genetics that is probably non corn.. Black Rat, Cali King, Baird's, Yellow Rat, Grey Rat, Pueb, even Gopher/Bull snake mixed in corns for who knows how long..

Of course, you would give a hoot if it was 3 or four generations back wouldn't you? Whats the point if it was a few generations back or 25yrs ago.. ?? Its still there....

No reason not to like your animals anyways, and no reason to say you should whap someone with a news paper like they are some dog eithier..

Excellent thread..

Regards... Tim of T and J

Your right about one thing. Id sure give a hoot if it was only 3 or 4 generations back. The only reason being was that if that had been the case i'd been lied to. I do not take kindly to that and don't know any one who would. Sure would'nt change how i feel about my snakes tho. Who knows i have seen some really beautiful hybreds on the net and might one day have one, and id not like em any less.
Now.. I never said nor even implied Rich was a dog for petes sake! I laughted after saying it implying i was joking. You don't know me but i have had at least 2 dogs at the same time my whole life and have never swatted a one with a newspaper.
Ppsstt.. I have had a hybred wolf/dog and most of my dogs have been mutts and i loved them anyways. I just don't need a " Pure" anything in a background to love it.

TandJ · 12-02-07, 01:01 PM

Now.. I never said nor even implied Rich was a dog for petes sake! I laughted after saying it implying i was joking.

I was laughing when I typed it out.. *LOL* Sometimes I really hate the net, can't see the humour on some else gestures and faces.. Course this might mean I get whapped with a news print for being cheeky too...

Regards.. Tim of T and J

Mysterry · 12-02-07, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by TandJ

I was laughing when I typed it out.. *LOL* Sometimes I really hate the net, can't see the humour on some else gestures and faces.. Course this might mean I get whapped with a news print for being cheeky too...

Regards.. Tim of T and J

Tim your very safe cause i use all my newpapers for the bird cages.

**Carol** · 12-02-07, 11:47 PM

Something from a different perspective.....

Do emoryi crosses do better because emoryi are hardier or just because so much "new" blood is being introduced? I suspect a lot of "corn problems" are due to overbreeding and breeding only for morphs/color. Perhaps introducing wild caught corns such as the Carolina corn would have the same effect. Sure, your emoryi crosses will always be stouter but that doesn't necessarily mean they are any healthier than a corn with a more lean appearance. Just like a Lab may be no more hardy than a Husky.

Scottsquatch · 12-03-07, 11:40 PM

Thats a very good point Carol. I would be totally down with outcrossing my lines with a few big ol Carolina corns any day. Or a nice big wild caught emoryi too. I was just thinking the same thing the other day. I see so many pictures of "huge" wild corns (I am always hungering for the XXXL corns myself) and my own collection seems so stunted by comparison. I agree that with all the focus on color and pattern, perhaps nobody has really been paying much attention to breeding for sheer size. I also noticed that in Kathy's book, she mentions how corns are not commonly over 4 feet in captivity but DO attain the larger sizes in the wild (I believe she specifically mentioned the Carolina corns as well). Perhaps it is time we start infuzing some wild genes back into our morphs and start taking size into serious consideration.

Oh, and by the way, the male miami I got from you this past summer is doing very well. I think he is gonna be a real stunner. I sure am glad you decided to let that one go.

Scott

**vanderkm** · 12-04-07, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Carol

Something from a different perspective.....

Do emoryi crosses do better because emoryi are hardier or just because so much "new" blood is being introduced? I suspect a lot of "corn problems" are due to overbreeding and breeding only for morphs/color. Perhaps introducing wild caught corns such as the Carolina corn would have the same effect. Sure, your emoryi crosses will always be stouter but that doesn't necessarily mean they are any healthier than a corn with a more lean appearance. Just like a Lab may be no more hardy than a Husky.

I definitely think that a big part of the vigor in emoryi crosses is a result of the degree of genetic diversity (heterozygosity) that is present, especially in lines that have recent crosses to pure emoryi. I would expect that in outcrosses to wild caught lines too - especially if they are genetically very divergent from the strain of corn that was being crossed into them. I don't think you would get the same degree of 'hybrid vigor' from an captive line bred Okeetee crossed to a wild caught Okeetee as you would from breeding a captive line that was more removed from the wild type (like highly inbred diffused lines) to a wild caught Okeetee.

I have limited experience with first generation emoryi crosses, but the clutches I have had have not actually produced very thick bodied, heavy snakes. The first generation clutch that I have now as adults are very strong bodied but not as thick as I expected they would be from all I had heard about what emoryi crosses were supposed to be like. They are much more muscular than comparable sized corns though and were much larger at hatch - took fuzzies as first meal. The second generation high emoryi babies were not as large as the eomroyi cross parent at hatching, in fact hatchlings from one clutch of emoryi/corn back to corn were quite small. It will be interesting to see how they mature. The size and shape differences in different lines may be related to different lines of emoryi that are used in creating creamsicles in addition to the corn lines involved. Certainly the emoryi crosses have fantastic appetities and vigor - even the tiny babies are very strong feeders.

Interestingly the adult female emoryi crosses also had the strongest display of ovulation that I saw among my corns last season - they showed very marked behavioural changes that linked to ovulation, where most of the corns were much harder to detect. The reproductive vigor is also supposed to be a benefit of outcrossing, so I wonder if this is a factor as well. While I think there is great value in inbreeding to fix genetic traits in a population, I do thing that increasing homozygosity is often reflected in depression of size, strength and overall vigor in addition to uncovering hidden recessive pairs. Worth considering introducing unrelated lines intermittantly in any long term breeding plan to maintain that vigor, in my opinion.

mary v.