Butter-cream Technicality

Scottsquatch · 01-13-07, 05:54 PM

I got to thinking In response to a reply in my "rootbeer anybody?" thread. For me too call a snake a "butter cream" it would technichally have to be HOMO for caramel wouldn't it? So basically if I cross my rootbeer het for amel from Don Soderburg's yellow creamsicle line to a butter, I would really only have really yellow creamsicles, NOT "butter creams". I am correct in my new line of thinking right? So to truly make a butter cream, I would have to have a creamsicle that is het for caramel or a caramel rootbeer and then breed THAT to a butter right? Or breed two caramels to two creamsicles and then cross the resulting offspring. Those would be the real ways to make a "true" butter cream right? Anybody knowledgable on the subject is welcome to respond and point out anymore interesting points I may have not yet considered.
Anyway, when I cross my rootbeer to my butter or het butter, at least I will THEN have some founding stock for a "true" line of butter corns. Oh well, whats a few more years tacked onto the project right?

Scottsquatch · 01-13-07, 05:58 PM

I guess I can always find out if Don used the caramel gene in his founding stock of his yellow creamsicle line. Then my crossing would produce butter creams on the first try.

**vanderkm** · 01-14-07, 02:02 PM

I think that in order to call something a buttercream it should be the same as a butter corn, but with emoryi influence - so homozygous for both amel and caramel but with emoryi bloodlines. The creams that are het for caramel are very yellow though and I have never seen a picture of a confirmed buttercream. I will be doing a couple breedings this year that should produce some though - creams het caramel to caramel het amel. The hard part will be sorting out those het caramel from those homo for caramel - but I am expecting that the buttercreams will be much lighter at hatch.

These are three siblings that are creamsicle het caramel
females -

male

and some of this year's hatchlings that are creamsicle het caramel - lots of variation depending on the parents!!

possible het caramel - I suspect he is -- willing to hold him back til mature to prove it out.

mary v.

Clint Boyer · 01-14-07, 04:27 PM

I believe your assessment is correct. "True" Butter Creams would be snakes that are Butters (amel + caramel) with Emoryi heritage.

Scottsquatch · 01-15-07, 02:31 AM

Thanks Vanderkm and Clint for your input. This confirms my thinking was correct. Oddly enough Clint, it was YOUR response in my "rootbeer anybody" thread that got me to thinking about it in the proper light in the first place. Thank you for that! Anyway, next years breeding of my rootbeer "het" yellow cream to my butter will produce the babies I need. I can then cross them to produce the real deal. I'll keep you guys posted as things develop.

Scottsquatch · 01-15-07, 02:39 AM

Vanderkm, I don't have the experience with the creams and rootbeers that you do so I have to ask you. Why do you think the true buttercreams homo for caramel would hatch out lighter than the het caramels? Wouldn't the caramel gene on top of the yellow tendencies of emoryi genes combine to compound the overall effect and make a snake even MORE yellow than the creams that are only het caramel? If not, would they eventually mature to become more yellow? Please let me know what you think...I am totally fascinated by the subject and want to learn all I can about it. Thanks,

Scott

**vanderkm** · 01-15-07, 02:28 PM

My assumption is based on comparison with the difference between amels and butters - when they occur in the same clutch the amels show darker saddles, with more reddish coloration than butters. The background color can be quite similar, but the saddles of butters are lighter than amels.

I think creamsicles would show darker orange color in the saddles than buttercreams in the same clutch - and I suspect the buttercreams would have saddles that tend toward tan or dark yellow rather than having the orange tones. I suspect when caramel is homozygous it reduces the intensity of the saddle color along with strengthening the yellow in the background color as these guys mature. I hope to hatch my first clutches containing both this spring - so I guess I will have a better idea once I try to sort them out

mary v.

Scottsquatch · 01-15-07, 03:59 PM

Thanks for the info. I understand what you mean and it does sound pretty logical. Man, I wish I was out your way...I would definately be wanting one of those hatchlings! Good luck with the clutch.

Scott

**Tom Thompson** · 01-30-07, 01:51 PM

I got this female from Pinello last year. Her father is a Motley Creamcicle/het Caramel. She is the result of Motley Cream/het Caramel x Striped motley butter. The last pic is of 2004 striped Creamcicle/50%poss het caramel.

**vanderkm** · 01-30-07, 02:17 PM

Nice to see a confirmed example - she really doesn't look much different from a butter, though perhaps the very pale background color might hint at the emoryi heritage. Any breeding plans for her this year?

mary v.