Stillwater Hypo Line Bullsnakes

[Russell]

In the Pituophis world there is a VERY strong desire to keep everything pure to the original animals caught from a specific place. Well, the story goes, someone rescued two bullsnakes from a Stillwater, OK rattlesnake roundup. And out of this pair comes the Stillwater Hypo gene. I'm going to go ahead and cut and paste some stuff onto here just cause I thought it was such a good thread on that forum. I hate to see in information just get buried and lost in time. Now, in our corn snake side of things, we don't fret about keeping our Charcoals to the original bloodline only of the two snakes paired up to produce that color, or the original Ambers only, or original lavender group only... Cause well, that's silly, these are just color morphs not a specific geographic race! But in the Pituophis world, some people I swear will shed blood to stay purists of line along with color! Though this thread didn't get ugly. But then, perhaps the purists were still at Daytona...LOL!

*quote John Ginter*
actually I rarely look at the ads on kingsanake and I can not recall ever blasting one in the past. I have recieved e-mails from Billy indicating outcrossed stillwater ads but I rarely get involved as it is non of my business.

Billy usually raises a stink and I tell him, "I can't control what others do, pure stillwaters are important to me and I know mine are pure so I am satisfied with that"

I do not really know who has pure representatives of my pure stillwater line anymore as my stuff generally goes to a whole sale guy (John at Suncoast herp). I lost the founder female this year and she has not produced for a couple of years but I am raising up one of her granddaughters, so known pure stillwaters should be available from me just around the corner. I am sure that there are many other folks working with pure stillwaters but I am sure that there are plenty of folks who have out crossed animals who do not even know that their animals are out crossed.........

keep us posted regarding your search

*Quote myself...*
Yeah, we are talking about animals that are not isolated to a small area here. But why the argument is brought up, is that you've got as I understand it, two snakes that are the original animals of this hypo gene. So to keep the line going you'd have to be breeding siblings if you want to keep it only within the boundaries of the original pair and nothing more. So yes, you'd then have to inbreed something awful. But as far as I know of, there are no current problems genetically with this bloodline. Your going to have arguments up and down the spectrum on this one!

Some will say, because it was a rattlesnake roundup, that we have no idea of the exact locale of the animals rescued. So we don't know locality, thus trying to breed ANY other bullsnake into the line will produce outcrossed stock and no longer truly locality pure any more since they are not pure to that individual pair. But was locality ever an issue in the first place? Cause true locality is unknown!

So why is there any argument at all about purity when shouldn't it be treated like any other recessive gene? Well, yes and no! Yes, you still have the Hypo gene cropping up when you outcross but because when you outcross your still having a new set of genes that may affect how the hypo gene is expressed.

Case point, when you breed Hypo into an Okeetee Corn snake versus a plain jane generic looking corn snake, you can in the second generation have two very different looking Hypo corns show up. In fact Hypo A has shown up in Okeetee lines of John Meltzer that look different and cleaner than the regular Hypo A that most of us know.

I'm hoping I didn't lose anyone in that! So yes, they hypo gene can still go on, but your going to have the purists who want to say, Stillwater blood only! And then on the other side your going to have people who say, we need to outcross this gene, it's still hypo, and it's from the Stillwaters...so we call them stillwater hypo.

So thus hackles get raised cause...the stillwater blood only could get unhappy that their Stillwater name is being used to make sales. But really, is that fair? It's still the Stillwater Hypo gene expressing itself! So that is why those who sell the outcrossed stock say Stillwater. Yet I do have to side with the purists on this one. I would like purity if at all possible. But I myself don't know how people who WANT to be honest are going to word it. They want to get the highest dollar for great looking animals. They don't want to sit there and say, oh by the way these are outcrossed and so not pure to the line Stillwaters...

But frankly maybe they should? I mean, are we unhappy with how these animals that were from outcrossed hets are turning out? From what I'm seeing in pictures, I'm not unhappy! But after doing a bit more digging, I found out something...

*quote Ben Rogers*
I got the female from a guy named Brendan who got her from Home grown herps. He traded some leopard geckos at a show for a trio of Jim's Stillwater hypos. I e-mailed Jim at the time and he confirmed the female came from him. I meant to ask Jim a little more about my female before I had these babies but as I recall Brendan did say she was the result of breeding a stillwater hypo to a stillwater local bull in order to keep the line as pure as possible while still allowing some genetic diversity.

So now you have the absolute purists SCREAMING foul cause...the ad does read Stillwater Hypo Bulls. But I say, not totally fair, cause they ARE Stillwater Hypos! Didn't say Stillwater Hypo locality! Though I hate tossing locality in there, cause, well, we really don't know exact locality where the original pair were swiped up for the rattlesnake roundup from where they were rescued.

In the ad, the father to the babies is pure Stillwater blood. The mother is from an outcross to a Stillwater locality normal bull. So there are going to be some that are going to say, what's the problem? It's still a gorgeous Hypo bullsnake from that same general area!

I can see the point some can and will make that oh, we need to keep the line pure. But I do see the point very well of those who say, we need to cross this out a bit but to animals from that general area.

So anyhow, each person has to make their own decision on what they want of this hypo gene. Do you want only descendents that are pure blood relatives of the original pair. Or descendents of outcrossed animals that still carried and expressed the hypo gene? The more animals you include into a line the more variation in look your going to have when the hypo gene is expressed.

These babies produced in this particular ad are still very much bright Hypo with black showing. Totally different from the other hypo gene out there in bullsnakes. If I recall correctly, John Meltzer has yet a third gene of hypo in bullsnakes. So they have the gene, and are three fourths pure to the Stillwater line IF the mother was from het to het breeding. If Jim were around, which, at the moment I'm sure he's at Daytona, he could step in and say a word or two.

I say, to each their own, but there does need to be a total honesty about advertising, which sadly, often never is totally honest or up front with ALL the information! Was Ben lying? No he wasn't! It really depends on the buyer to do the digging to find out exactly what is meant and what they know!

I have called on a couple ads for New Jersey Northern Pines, and when you ask on it, you often find that, oops, they can't actually verify they are New Jersey locality stock Northern Pines...but they look like it... Huh?

Or you have those that say, well, the guy I got them from said they were, so I'm saying they are and I believe it! I know, a whole new can of worms to play with! But seriously! It depends on what is important to each buyer I guess! I have Northern Pines I have kept and am calling John Meltzer pure stock. John can't give me the name of the guy he got his from. The poor guy doesn't need the mud slinging that too often goes on with locality people! I don't blame him one bit! But he had wild caught stuff back in the seventies that John got babies at that time. And that's perfectly good enough for me.

So that's what it will boil down to, what are YOU as a buyer happy with?

Sadly someday none of this is going to matter anymore. We are going to just hope to get a pure bullsnake, or pure pinesnake, or pure cornsnake...oh wait, what am I saying? sadly enough you don't know if your captive bred cornsnake is pure cornsnake anymore! That's yet another can of worms I won't get into on a PITUOPHIS forum... he he he Unless you buy it from someone who can say they got it from wild caught adults or a bloodline and kept it pure to the bloodline.

So you have to ask yourself what's more important, the look or the purity of blood you don't see anyway? I see both sides. And would myself like to have purity of blood AND the look! When I pick out a baby herp of any group, I want the nicest looking one. Who cares if a plain looking snake is pure Okeetee Hunt Club? Well now, to some purist out there, that IS a big deal. But for me, it better look like an Okeetee for me to call it an Okeetee! And all the better if Okeetee Hunt Club locality can be verified.
*End Quote*

Anyhow, the originator of the line is John Ginter and he has done very well keeping the line pure. Others have outcrossed to various morph projects to create new colors. Some purists condemn outcrossing where to me, that's not something one should condemn! Anyhow, I picked up a pair of these Stillwater line Hypos. Cause I liked the mother to these babies. And here they are. Fresh off the FedEx truck.

[Mysterry]

Congradulations Russell on your new additions. They are pretty but in that first photo it looks crankie.. Geez a pine that looks testie can ya beat that..

[Russell]

Here are the parents to the above babies!

[Mysterry]

Oh wow those are beautiful Russell, so colourful. Love those white heads too. My fav tho is the one in the lower right hand corner.

[hardwired]

Wow, those are very pretty! I can see why you like them. That is very interesting how detail oriented that discussion was. It will be interesting to see if they have similar out crossing issues like the corns do and where those folks think potential gene contamination would come from. I applaud any measure that helps preserve any of the creatures that we have on this planet especially those that are often overlooked by the mammal crowd.

[Bighill_Reptile]

Beautiful babies walter one of my faves in all the pitts please keep the pics comming

[Russell]

Originally Posted by Bighill_Reptile

Beautiful babies walter one of my faves in all the pitts please keep the pics comming

Who's Walter?

[Bighill_Reptile]

sorry Russel i just got off the phone with my bud Walter at the red deer show lol beautiful pitts man congrats

[Scottsquatch]

Russell, once again you sing the siren song that works so hard to entice me to snakes other than corns! What beauties they are! In fact, I saw so many sweet looking bulls at the Daytona show that I may well have to get some once I get a house with room for more specimens. Thanks for the great pics.

Scott

[Lexcorn]

Superb examples there Russell.......I mean Walter.

And what a detailed explanation 'covenance' to go with them. Certainly cause for much thought.

I find it curious that the word 'purist' is really an idealist way of saying that the lineage is highly inbred, however, if there are no serious defects from this breeding approach then this definition is appropriate.

The word 'Inbred' can, often, receive an unnecessary & totally inappropriate response.

Good luck with your new additions.

Lex