Personal moral/ethical debate

[WestExHerps]

I agree with everyone else. You just have to follow what's right for you. Some people can keep 200 and not be overwhelmed. If I didn't have Weston's help every step of the way I would have been out of breeding years ago. Every year around Nov. I always have a "snake depression" period....where I keep asking myself why on earth I do what I do. However every summer when that first head comes out of the egg all the work seems worth it. Or, when I get occasional emails from past buyers giving me updates and pictures of past babies, it evens out for me. I do try to keep an even number of animals......so this year a lot of my past breeders will be sold. I just kept back too many. Good luck with your decision, just remember that everyone has a different comfort level, just do what feels right for you.

[Serpwidgets]

I don't mean to criticize anyone's decision making processes or insinuate that anyone is immoral/unethical, but I am always fascinated by the ability of humans (including myself) to apply two completely different sets of morals/ethics to similar situations.

I'm talking about mice and rats, of course. For a "snake person" it doesn't seem to bother anyone that about a thousand mice have to die just to feed a snake who lives 20 years. Yet at the same time we are extremely concerned that even one of our snakes might not have a long life.

Is it ok because the mice are euthanized and used as feeders? Or they are "bred for it" or something?

Does the same apply if the corns are euthanized and used as feeders? Is it just the "pet" aspect of things, or where is the difference coming from? Just curious as long as this topic is here.

[Joanna]

To be honest I am more concerned about the part of creating a life only for my pleasure. In a way I feel that I am playing god. If I didn't create the life of the snake in the first place then I wouldn't have to worry about the snakes life or the life of the mice.

Your point is valid. The life of the mice is no less important than the life of the snake.

[shedn_my_skin]

Originally Posted by Serpwidgets

I don't mean to criticize anyone's decision making processes or insinuate that anyone is immoral/unethical, but I am always fascinated by the ability of humans (including myself) to apply two completely different sets of morals/ethics to similar situations.

I'm talking about mice and rats, of course. For a "snake person" it doesn't seem to bother anyone that about a thousand mice have to die just to feed a snake who lives 20 years. Yet at the same time we are extremely concerned that even one of our snakes might not have a long life.

Is it ok because the mice are euthanized and used as feeders? Or they are "bred for it" or something?

Does the same apply if the corns are euthanized and used as feeders? Is it just the "pet" aspect of things, or where is the difference coming from? Just curious as long as this topic is here.

Chuck, it's a good question. I of course do not have a problem with feeding off mice, but would want the mouse to meet its maker in a quick and painless way. I don't even have a problem with people who breed corns just to have food for their king snakes, but again the condition is that I wouldn't want the corn to suffer. I would rather see a corn die painlessly than lead a long life of neglect from a uncaring owner. Same goes for mice. A pet that is kept inhumanely really might be better off dead than to spend its life in constant suffering.

[FireDrake]

It is a very good point! And I have to agree with Joanna.. it's the life itself, not the species.. I think...anyways.

On a side note, I recently got on a few rat and mouse websites because I want to start raising them for snake food and could not believe the amount of references to rats and mice not being used as feeders...for anything... so I wonder, do they believe that hurt raptors should not be rehabed and released? Do snakes, monitors and birds of prey have less of a right to live than rats? Do these people eat cows, pigs, chicken and fish?

I do feel bad sometimes about the lives of those poor little mice and rats..which is why i have always in the past fed FT and now that I am raising them it is very hard for me to feed off live babies (adults I dont care as much about, dunno why, babies hit me harder) but I gotta admit I love my snakes more than my mice. If I ever had a bigger animal that only eats snakes, I would probably breed snakes to feed it... hell, I feed my Pixie frog non-eating babies (FT of course)

Sarah

Originally Posted by Serpwidgets

I don't mean to criticize anyone's decision making processes or insinuate that anyone is immoral/unethical, but I am always fascinated by the ability of humans (including myself) to apply two completely different sets of morals/ethics to similar situations.

I'm talking about mice and rats, of course. For a "snake person" it doesn't seem to bother anyone that about a thousand mice have to die just to feed a snake who lives 20 years. Yet at the same time we are extremely concerned that even one of our snakes might not have a long life.

Is it ok because the mice are euthanized and used as feeders? Or they are "bred for it" or something?

Does the same apply if the corns are euthanized and used as feeders? Is it just the "pet" aspect of things, or where is the difference coming from? Just curious as long as this topic is here.

[midnightline]

I dunno... I don't really quite see the "playing god" part. I mean, if you think about it, two cornsnakes are more than happy to do the breeding part, with or without human intervention. The only part where we're controlling them is when we decide when and with whom the snakes breed.

Yeah, it sucks that lots of snakes are neglected and die, but I would rather see responsible breeders out there educating those who buy their stock, than have the herp hobby left to the domains of those who take far less care of their snakes and don't care if the buyer has enough information or the correct information to ensure the snake's survival.

Rather than looking at it as creating lives which have the potential to be abused, think of it as promoting the decent care of snakes and the enthusiasm for snakes... and for taking up the space that would otherwise be filled by someone who doesn't give a rat's tail.

[Cam5]

The synical over simplified version is...
All creatures on earth have rights to humane treatment....And there is a food chain.

[a_god_s]

Originally Posted by Cam5

The cynical over simplified version is...
All creatures on earth have rights to humane treatment....And there is a food chain.

Well said Cam5.

I really appreciate the posts in this thread. I've been thinking about the aspects of breeding (much like the other posters) and what part I play in it.
I enjoy the hatchlings so much. Watching their growth,as develop their individual personalities, the cool feeding responses but I also think about those that have gone to other homes. I wish they all could be cared for at the level I do but I know that isn't reality.
I take my snakes into schools to better educate children and I like to think it makes a difference. I not only talk about snakes but all animals kept as pets.
I understand where your coming from Kathy and like everyone else, support and respect your decision 100%. It's up to the individual to decide for themselves what is right or not.

[FunkyRes]

If corns are over-produced, there are plenty of elapid and coachwhip keepers who would much prefer captive bred feeders to road cruising for DORs.

I bet many of the big breeders have such arrangements already.

[FunkyRes]

Another thing you can do is reduce your production by euthanizing eggs - place excess eggs from a clutch in the freezer and then discard them. Or feed the excess eggs to other snakes.