Personal moral/ethical debate - Page 4

toyah · 03-20-08, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by cornspot

One thing about corns is that there are not huge numbers of them in rescue. This gives me the feeling that they are not (yet) being overproduced.

See, I don't agree with that. They're not particularly in rescue because they die, or they're released - it's much easier for a person to accidentally or neglectfully kill a snake than a dog. I would be very surprised if even 10% of corn snakes bulk bred in the UK live a reasonably long life. They're more like goldfish than dogs from a neglect point of view ... easy to forget about or pass on to someone else.

Originally Posted by Serpwidgets

I'm talking about mice and rats, of course. For a "snake person" it doesn't seem to bother anyone that about a thousand mice have to die just to feed a snake who lives 20 years.

Yet at the same time we are extremely concerned that even one of our snakes might not have a long life.

The issue to me is not life and death - it's quality of life. I will humanely cull the mice I breed for feeders, but I wouldn't sell my rats to a pet shop to be sold on as pets to an unsuitable environment. I wouldn't disagree with someone humanely culling excess corns to be used as snake food for other species of snakes, but I'd disagree with someone buying a corn snake and keeping it poorly. It's not two sets of morals and ethics, it's different parts of the same set of morals and ethics ...

Originally Posted by FireDrake

On a side note, I recently got on a few rat and mouse websites because I want to start raising them for snake food and could not believe the amount of references to rats and mice not being used as feeders...for anything... so I wonder, do they believe that hurt raptors should not be rehabed and released? Do snakes, monitors and birds of prey have less of a right to live than rats? Do these people eat cows, pigs, chicken and fish?

Actually, as a fancy rat breeder, I can tell you that not selling as feeders is nothing to do with vegetarianism, not wanting to rehab raptors, or not thinking other animals have a right to live. Rats (and mice) are both very prone to a wide variety of illnesses, and although they make fantastic pets, their health problems are their main downfall. So any reputable breeder is aiming not only to improve their type, colour, and markings - but also health and temperament over the generations. You cannot do this if you cull animals for any reason.

I ensure that every rat I sell goes to a home who will stay in touch with me for the lifespan of the animal, and keep me informed on any health or temperament problems. This means I can use that data when making breeding decisions in later generations ... the rat I kept might be healthy and fine, but if a large number of its siblings develop early tumours or health problems, then my decision would be not to breed from him, just in case. If I gave away those siblings as feeders I would not have that information, and my breeding decisions would be less informed and less ethical from the point of view of breeding for animals with a reasonable expectation of a good quality of life.

Originally Posted by galenwbritt

Anyway, that is my thoughts AND plan when multiples of unwanted/unneeded snakes hatch out.........somebody orders 1, they get a surprise in their box with 2. Somebody buys direct from an ad or expo locally, they get an extra for free.

Surely that's not removing the problem of having too many snakes - it's just passing it on to someone else?

galenwbritt · 03-20-08, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by toyah

Surely that's not removing the problem of having too many snakes - it's just passing it on to someone else?

If I find out during my follow up with the customer that a "freebie" they received in their box is unwanted.......I will pay to have it shipped back to me. I don't consider it as me "passing it off" as much as a generous offer to my client. It won't be an every order type thing, just here and there. I have yet to see a thread where ANYBODY has received a "freebie" and either been upset by it or not even put it in the pictures of their new arrivals. They have another snake for their projects, as a pet or simply something to sell/give to a trusted friend.

If done correctly, I don't see me paying for many (if any) return shipments. I don't have a problem keeping what I produce.......and if/when it ever gets to that time, I will get out of it. I haven't (and won't) EVER pass a problem/situation off to somebody else.....in anything. My goal is to satisfy the customer and will do whatever is needed to meet that goal.

G

FunkyRes · 03-20-08, 08:52 AM

Most of the time - I probably honestly would not mind.
I would like to know beforehand though.

It's not just rack space - it's rodents.

Local pet store charges $1.50 per rodent regardless of size regardless of f/t or live.
So I order from rodent pro - and I order enough to last me for 3 months, for all my snakes.

Add unexpected snakes, and I may run out of the fuzzy size before I'm ready to order again - especially since young snakes eat more often than adults, about twice as often.

It's really not *that* big of a deal, but I still would prefer to know before the shipper ships that an extra snake is in the package.

**Nanci** · 03-20-08, 10:18 AM

I haven't bred any corns yet, but the way I am going to deal with the surplus of very common morphs is this:

I have an Avalanche Stripe/Bloodred Stripe het Snow pair.

1/4 bloodred stripe het snow
1/4 fire stripe het anery
1/4 granite stripe het amel
1/4 avalanche stripe

I don't even have a fire stripe or granite stripe- and wouldn't mind more bloodred stripes or avalanche stripes! Any of those babies should be quite easy to sell.

My other pair is Het Opal Stripe/Lav Stripe het Amel- out of my 16 potential babies, I could get:

3 normals het lav stripe
3 lavs het stripe
3 stripes
3 lav stripes
1 amel
1 opal
1 amel stripe
1 opal stripe

There are many morphs in that group that I don't have! (I only have a lav and a lav stripe!) I think even the normals het lav stripe would be not so difficult to find homes for. Some people really like "rolling their own."

**FireDrake** · 03-20-08, 10:51 AM

[quote=toyah;46444]I ensure that every rat I sell goes to a home who will stay in touch with me for the lifespan of the animal, and keep me informed on any health or temperament problems. This means I can use that data when making breeding decisions in later generations ... the rat I kept might be healthy and fine, but if a large number of its siblings develop early tumours or health problems, then my decision would be not to breed from him, just in case. If I gave away those siblings as feeders I would not have that information, and my breeding decisions would be less informed and less ethical from the point of view of breeding for animals with a reasonable expectation of a good quality of life.
QUOTE]

I understand Your point about breeding for genetic health and I appreciate that, but let's face it, that is NOT why some rat and mice breeders say the things I was pointing out in my orginal post. Just like dog, cat, horse, cow, snake, pig and rabbit, there are good honest rat and mouse breeders who do what they say they do, and there are those how talk out their butts about quality and they only want the best and then go blind and deaf when they get that cash.

**mellsworth** · 03-20-08, 12:11 PM

Honestly its about the person that is responsible for breeding the animals. In my opinion. I am new to corn snakes, but not to horses and dogs. I don't breed either anymore but it is rewarding that I still have people calling, e-mailing and writing, some ten years after there last purchase from me wanting to buy from me again. I know that I have left a positive impact on the breed. I think when you decide to breed animals you take on a responsibility as long as you are doing your best (by you customer and your animals) you are an asset to the breed in whole. If you can be knowledgable and pass that on to people you are also providing a service that is invaluable. Some of the biggest mistakes are made in ignorance. I know I have made my fair share. I am sorry if this sounded preachy. It's just my way of saying If you are bettering the breed keep doing what your doing! I wish you the best of luck!

**Dionythicus** · 03-20-08, 03:06 PM

It's interesing to see where this thread has gone, because it was mostly a personal view of what I'm thinking about in my own collection. While I've enjoyed reading it, I'm going to close it because it was not intended to spark debate. I was just thinking out loud. Thanks for the responses, though.