Personal moral/ethical debate

[Dionythicus]

Something has always bothered me personally with my own decision to breed snakes. I don't believe in puppy/kitten mills nor backyard breeders of such because of the overpopulation of dogs and cats, so what am I doing by breeding snakes? Pretty much the same thing in my opinion. It was never my original plan to breed, I just wanted to collect a variety of snakes and have a pretty collection. Now that I've started breeding, it's so cool to do it. Now that I have 104 snakes, it's become more work and money, so I'm deliberating on whether or not to cut WAY back and have a few snakes that I may breed at some point but mostly just enjoy them, or should I continue full speed ahead and keep breeding? I can't compete with some of the bigger names in the business, there are only so many pet stores (which I don't like to sell to if I can avoid it), plus shipping is always nervewracking for me in case something goes wrong. If I cut back, I can also stop breeding mice and just get a couple rats for pets. It would open up a whole room in the house for other uses, too. I really want to simplify my life now, I'm paying off my debts so I can quit my current job and go to work some place where I can be more free in my appearance, making less money, of course. But I'd be happy. I'm looking at selling about half my collection, keeping a few high end morphs, rare ratsnakes and my hybrids. Selling that many means I have to spend more money on shipping supplies, but it would all come out in the wash, I suppose. I wouldn't be looking to get rich, although I wouldn't be giving them away, either. I think I know the answer, but I'll be mulling it over for now.

[shedn_my_skin]

I kind of know what you mean, there are people I have sold snakes to in the past that I had a twinge of guilt not knowing if they would be taking the best care of them. I have downsized and got rid of a few breeders in the past couple of years, but I really do enjoy working with the new hatchlings and though I enjoy my snakes as pets I also love playing around with the morph combinations. And as much as I've downsized on adults I've picked up a lot of new hatchlings and kept a bunch, so will end up in the same boat in a couple of years.
I have made my peace with it as best I can by deciding to only produce a few clutches a year, 100 hatchlings at once is about my limit of what I have time, room, and patience for. It will mean having to pick and choose which pairs to breed but I think my breeder females would appreciate the year off from producing eggs every now and then. Also this way every snake I hatch will have a nice shoebox mansion to reside in instead of having to have them in delis which I don't like doing. I know how it goes with jobs, I've had some higher paying ones where I was quite miserable and life is too short. You know what makes you happy, so go for it!

[Cam5]

My opinion...take it or leave it is....

By definition of the puppy breeders out there that are considered reputable.
They have a contract you sign that says you will take care of the dog until it dies or return it to the breeder.
They have their breeding animals tested so that they do not pass on anly defects.
They breed only healthy animals.
They are in the 'business' to improve or maintain the breed they have chosen.
The animals are kept in clean conditions and fed.
The people keep up to date on the breed and attend shows etc.
They charge people money...more than the stores and backyard breeders...

Now snakes and dogs have little in common, except...the owners intentions.
I personally think that if you are interested and able to breed your snakes and find them good homes...go for it.
If you really want to regain the pet aspect of snake ownership try cutting back by 25% or something and see what you think.

Either way...if you cut back to 3 snakes and in 2 years really feel you and the folks at large are missing out...there will be plenty of beautiful snakes out there waiting for your next project. Or you will love those 3 snakes until they pass of old age in 20 years...

Let us know how it goes either way

[cornspot]

One thing about corns is that there are not huge numbers of them in rescue. This gives me the feeling that they are not (yet) being overproduced.

I don't require people to fill out an application or anything, but I do give all buyers a caresheet pamphlet and try to make sure they know that they can get in touch with me if the have ANY problems or questions and that I am always willing to take the animal back if they can no longer keep it. I know a lot of people don't want to do that because it does potentially risk their collection if the snake was exposed to something in the new owner's home, but I feel responsible for my babies throughout their lives. I am always glad to have customers who give me updates on snakes they have purchased from me.


As far as whether or not to scale back...If you are not really enjoying it, it's becoming more of a chore than a recreation, you are probably doing too much. If you aren't quite ready to give up your collection, try breeding only a few pairs each year, switching off to still get a variety but without as many little mouths to feed each season.

I have about half of what you have and am still enjoying it and still building but I can see that I will be reaching my maximum comfort level within a couple of years. I am already planing what adults will be the first to go (it'll be hard b/c they are from my first clutch & I probably will keep one just because)

[MohrSnakes]

Good luck with your decision! I completely understand the desire to cut back. I've been there. In fact, this year will probably be a big cut back year for me. There comes a time when you realize you can't keep them all and the more you keep the less individual attention each snake gets. Somewhere you have to find the peace at keeping what you can and enjoying at the same time. I wish you well.

[Cam5]

I just wanted to clarify that I was not suggesting you do all the dog breeder would do...only showing that...as far as I can tell the care etc is parallel and that otherwise it is a bit like comparing apples and bananas
The dog 'industry' is huge, as noted by the shelters.
From what I can tell you have provided the best care and guide you new owners in the same.
Best of luck!

[Dionythicus]

This has been a major issue within myself since I made the decision to breed. As a Pagan, I have tremendous respect for all life and I question myself daily on whether or not I need to be bringing more lives into the world. I don't think there are that many corns in shelters because people probably kill them first through neglect, turn them loose or since they are fairly easy to keep (in good conditions or bad) people just hold onto them. My herp society gets corns in throughout the year, some in pretty bad shape.

If I do continue to breed, it will be one to three females a year, and only with the desire to produce healthy offspring that people will want because they are high end moprhs, hybrids or a rare species. My original goal was to have a pair of each morph (or hets for multiple morphs) so that each year I would produce one morph or variety of that morph. That means keeping alot of snakes! I've already started parting with some morphs that I don't intend to work with, like my sunkissed pair. There are some genes I like better than others.

My other reasoning is that I need to reduce stress, focus on another path in my life and save money. It's not that I can't continue to take care of all the snakes I have now. I could keep going for years, even take on more snakes. I simply want to lighten my load and enjoy the snakes I have. I've made a list of the projects I want to work on, so I think I can get over the moral hurdle that way.

My projects include...

Bloodreds (pewter and ghost)
Banded/Milksnake phase (Miami, butter, Okeetee)
Okeetee (aztec and Abbott's)
Lava
Christmas hypo
Hybrids
Hypo Baird's
Russian Ratsnakes
Honduran Ratsnakes
possibly MBKs

We'll see how it goes. Before I can list anything for sale, I need to order shipping supplies. Money has to go out before it can come in. Stay tuned for a large list of animals for sale.

[FireDrake]

I know exactly what you mean, as a fellow Pagan too...sometimes I look at my collection and think, WTF am I doing? If I had the space and cash flow, I would give every single one of my adult snakes HUGE cages...and I tell myself that would justify keeping them. I keep on saying, one of these days I am going to go nuts and sell off everything but a select few favorites and never breed snakes again.

I agree with what Cam5 said, there are responsible and irresponsible breeders in EVERY animal group. I do not think it's wrong to NOT fully screen potential buyers for their knowledge and promise to take good care, espeically for us who might have 20 30 40 50 plus babies to sell, that is pretty prohibitive... for a litter of 8 puppies or kitties it's easier. I think where one advertises makes a difference too. Placing an add here you are probably more likelty to find people with true interest in keeping a corn healthy than if you advertised in the local paper.

I do unfortunately think that the corn is going to end up one of the next "throw away" pets, because they are extremely easy to aquire and often at very low prices. I stopped breeding bearded dragons for that very reason. I cannot believe the amount of babies one pair of dragons produces every year, then the amount of people wanting to start up huge breeding operations. How can you flood the market with that many baby dragons and not expect them to become the "oh this one died I can just go get another one" kind of pet. I had a hard enough time keeping up with 20 or so babies, I cannot imagine raising hundreds every year.

A couple weeks ago someone emailed me JUST to tell my my $45 corns were "too expensive for him" and when I have some available for $20 or less to let him know. And last winter at a show I helped Kat at some jerk asked where all our $5 corns were!

K I'll shut up now, but I know how you feel...I'm going thru it myself!

[Joanna]

First off I want to say that I really respect the fact that you have posted this as an open discussion.

I have also grappled with the thought that I should not be creating more life whose main purpose is my pleasure and who may end up suffering. I think I know what the answer is, for me, but I am too selfish to stop breeding completely. This will be my third year breeding and we'll see if after this year I will be sated, but I doubt it.

Good luck in your decision to cut back on your collection and breeding. I hope all goes smoothly.

[Cam5]

Originally Posted by FireDrake

I agree with what Cam5 said, there are responsible and irresponsible breeders in EVERY animal group. I do not think it's wrong to NOT fully screen potential buyers for their knowledge and promise to take good care, espeically for us who might have 20 30 40 50 plus babies to sell, that is pretty prohibitive... for a litter of 8 puppies or kitties it's easier. I think where one advertises makes a difference too. Placing an add here you are probably more likelty to find people with true interest in keeping a corn healthy than if you advertised in the local paper.

I do unfortunately think that the corn is going to end up one of the next "throw away" pets, because they are extremely easy to aquire and often at very low prices. I stopped breeding bearded dragons for that very reason. I cannot believe the amount of babies one pair of dragons produces every year, then the amount of people wanting to start up huge breeding operations. How can you flood the market with that many baby dragons and not expect them to become the "oh this one died I can just go get another one" kind of pet. I had a hard enough time keeping up with 20 or so babies, I cannot imagine raising hundreds every year.

A couple weeks ago someone emailed me JUST to tell my my $45 corns were "too expensive for him" and when I have some available for $20 or less to let him know. And last winter at a show I helped Kat at some jerk asked where all our $5 corns were!

K I'll shut up now, but I know how you feel...I'm going thru it myself!

I also agree with you that pre-screening is prohibitive...BUT by providing the correct care information you ARE doing your share to ensure the best possible outcome

I also have to say...the guys looking for the $5 snakes are everywhere...
We go into the humane society regularily to visit the animas that hve been there a while (and have done some foster care for them).
A guy walked in...looked up and down the cages and came over asking where the "$10 decent hunting dogs were". Okay dude...these animals are temperament tested, fixed/up to date on shots etc etc etc... The when the gal explained the deal..
$200 for a dog is actually a 'good price' and perhaps if he can't afford the purchase price how would he afford the care?
He said "well I always have extra food lying around spoiling" and "I know all about dogs i don't need a vet". "How about a 2 for one if I pay cash?"...ARGH!

Unfortunately we see too many people picking out herps based on price...let's get the cheap anole...never mind the set up he requires to be healthy...he's only 10 bucks...let's keep him in the old scuzzy fish tank...oh, he died in a week?...that's okay he "didn't do much anyway" how about a 5 dollar gerbil? etc etc etc.

Back on topic you do what's in your gut/heart and it will be the right thing