Discussion...Our Sunkissed Genes (Stargazer/Sfactor gene)

**HanneysCorns** · 03-13-07, 12:25 PM

The internet is a powerful tool.

Since posting pics of some of our corns who have sunkissed genes, replying to a thread in regards to 'bobble head ball pythons' in another forum, and of course replying here to posts in The Stargazer Project thread, I have received many inquiries about exactly what our plans are for our Sunkissed genes here.

I would like to set the record straight and also save myself the time answering these inquiries and having to compose email replies each time this question is asked of me.

We presently have 5 corns in our collection who have sunkissed genes, or possible sunkissed genes. When these corns, as hatchlings were added to our collection our plans for projects got us very excited. We are still very excited about these projects and the possibility of combining these genes with other morphs in our collection. We have simply decided that until such time that we can with 100% assurity know that these particular hatchlings do NOT carry the 'factor S' gene, we will not be introducing this gene into any of our breeding projects. Yes, my dreams of producing Sunkissed Lavenders, Sunkissed Caramels and many other double homo morphs with the sunkissed gene are presently quashed, but I believe that I have a moral obligation to myself.

I don't want to spend years on a project that involves both selective and line breeding, only to find that in an F2, F3 or F4 generation that I am presented with a 'gazer'. I simply want to know my present stock is clean...and that means more to me than being able to perhaps be the 'first' in Canada.

Since there are not a lot of sunkissed genes presently in Canada, my feeling is I can 'nip this in the bud' stage. I can only be responsible for my own stock. I will not stand upon a soapbox and preach.

I have chosen to heed the 'messenger's' warning. Arrangements have been made to ensure we will have testing corns here by the summer. This in itself will be a long term project as these corns must mature, be bred to each other to determine which of those do in fact carry the 'S factor' and then my present stock will need to be bred back to known carriers. Yes, it seems like a long and tedious road to travel, but it is something I feel is of utmost importance if I wish to one day hatch that Sunkissed Lav or Caramel.

I want to personally thank Dr. Connie Hurley, D.V.M. for her guidance and patience with answering all my questions. Her work so far on The Stargazer Project has been an inspiration to me.

I am sorry to disappoint those of you who were hoping to add sunkissed genes into your lines from our stock in the next few years. Once our stock has been proven 'S factor' free, we will be continuing on with the projects.

Patience is a virtue, and it has never been more obvious to me than now.

Ruth

**Hurley** · 03-13-07, 03:39 PM

To add to the record,

Ruth has asked some very thoughtful questions and I applaud her efforts to clear her lines and try to turn the unknown to known.

The ACR has responded with adding a field for StarGazer status as unproven, proven clear, *S Factored, and Gazer (I'll have to look up the exact terms used, but that's the gist). It will be helpful to be able to trace back the lines. If a sunkissed project has founders that prove out clear, that clears the progeny (within a reasonable amount of confidence, nothing is 100%). The status can be changed online using your password for your snakes. Record changes are visible, so it can be seen what changes have been made, when, and by whom.

As for testing animals, to my knowledge, the pair we proved out this year are the only reported known het gazer animals, but I can't speak for what is in collections unreported or by people not on this board. Though it will take some time, in a couple years, we will hopefully have a larger number of known tester animals as these possible het clutch mature and we can begin to test-cross them to identify carriers.

For the record, I do not and will not ever sell gazers or gazer hets. I will supply them at my discretion to responsible breeders who wish to pursue testing their own colonies for cost of shipping or free to pick up. When I've got testers in a few years and my own possible hets are all tested out, I may eventually have known *S factored animals available for loan/use. This will be on a first-come, first-served basis and at my discretion on the need of the animals/quanitity of animals that need to be tested.

Hopefully we'll have more information soon when we get histopathology back on a gazer submitted.

And Ruth, I think it's time we get up an information page on "Star-Gazing in Corn Snakes" and Chuck and I were planning on getting this going on our site. You are more than welcome to collaborate and/or mirror the page on your site if you wish.

As they say and as I believe, "Knowledge is Power".

Hopefully the corn hobby will benefit from this work in time.

**EeekSnakes** · 03-13-07, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by HanneysCorns

.... but I believe that I have a moral obligation to myself......

as a person, and NOT a buyer/breeder, I agree with your statement 100%. Morals are something alot of people seem to lack in this day and age unfortunately. I applaud you for taking the stand as such.

... as a breeder.... Again, I am happy to see you, amongst others, believing it is an obligation. A moral one, but still an obligation. Personally, I believe that not only is it a moral decision to yourself, but it also involves the buyer. IMHO, you can't get much lower than one who misrepresents their product, in this case, your snakes. If a snake is known to carry a gene, an abnormality in any way which may be inherited, a disease, the breeder has an obligation to inform the buyer of such, and let them make their decision KNOWING all the details.

Stargazers aside ( as I do not work with the sunkissed gene), I had a snow corn with misshaped scutes in the ventral area. After consulting others, the conclusion I came to was that although it may not imped breeding, there is the possibility that it will.. as well as any of her babies could have this deformity as well. It was my responsibility to point this out and let others decide. She was sold as pet only

I am soooooo sick of people selling ill animals, animals that may have a genetic problem, and all around low quality.

Originally Posted by RUTH

I don't want to spend years on a project that involves both selective and line breeding, only to find that in an F2, F3 or F4 generation that I am presented with a 'gazer'. I simply want to know my present stock is clean...and that means more to me than being able to perhaps be the 'first' in Canada.

It is refreshing to hear people putting their morals before making money. I'm certain that knowing your snakes may be S factored, has put you years behind in any of your projects involving sunkissed. It says alot that you are willing to take the time to PROVE your snakes are NOT S factored before reproducing them. Again, I applaud you.

Originally Posted by RUTH

Since there are not a lot of sunkissed genes presently in Canada, my feeling is I can 'nip this in the bud' stage. I can only be responsible for my own stock. I will not stand upon a soapbox and preach.

You are correct. All any of us can do is be responsible for our own animals. Thankfully there are not alot of sunkissed gene's here yet ( Canada) that the ones that are here, can easily be investigated to find out IF that breeder has tested their animals for the S factor. Fortunately in one way, that serious cornsnake breeders ( whether hobbyist breeders or not) here are not as plentiful as the US. We have a little more control as to where these gene's go, where they come from, talk and share more knowledge of this gene... that hopefully we can nip it in the bud

Originally Posted by RUTH

Yes, it seems like a long and tedious road to travel, but it is something I feel is of utmost importance if I wish to one day hatch that Sunkissed Lav or Caramel.

Put me down for a Sunkissed Lavender

I don't work with sunkissed myself, and won't....but a proven S factor free, Sunkissed lavender may just change my mind

Originally Posted by RUTH

I am sorry to disappoint those of you who were hoping to add sunkissed genes into your lines from our stock in the next few years. Once our stock has been proven 'S factor' free, we will be continuing on with the projects.

Apology? Disappointment? I would be more disappointed if you were selling animals that you know, may have a chance of having the S factor gene.

I know that others also feel the same way.

Originally Posted by Hurley

The ACR has responded with adding a field for StarGazer status as unproven, proven clear, *S Factored, and Gazer (I'll have to look up the exact terms used, but that's the gist). It will be helpful to be able to trace back the lines. If a sunkissed project has founders that prove out clear, that clears the progeny (within a reasonable amount of confidence, nothing is 100%). The status can be changed online using your password for your snakes. Record changes are visible, so it can be seen what changes have been made, when, and by whom.

This is very much appreciated. I hope more people continue to register with the ACR so that we can keep the S factor contained persay. Your efforts to educate everyone about this topic is wonderful. Thank you Connie.

Originally Posted by CONNIE

For the record, I do not and will not ever sell gazers or gazer hets. I will supply them at my discretion to responsible breeders who wish to pursue testing their own colonies for cost of shipping or free to pick up. When I've got testers in a few years and my own possible hets are all tested out, I may eventually have known *S factored animals available for loan/use. This will be on a first-come, first-served basis and at my discretion on the need of the animals/quanitity of animals that need to be tested.

I have a loaded question for you. When you supply other breeders with gazers/hets, will you name them? ( the breeders that is) The reason I ask, is I've seen it before...where unfortunately a breeders says this or that, and you believe them to be responsible, later on you find out the complete opposite

I've had it happen in my own experiences. Giving a snake that would have been culled to a pet only home, later seeing that same snake for sale with no mention of the problem it has. Unfortunately people can be soooo two-faced sometimes. If they were named, perhaps this will help this type of situation from showing up..... just a thought to ponder.

Originally Posted by CONNIE

And Ruth, I think it's time we get up an information page on "Star-Gazing in Corn Snakes" and Chuck and I were planning on getting this going on our site. You are more than welcome to collaborate and/or mirror the page on your site if you wish.

As they say and as I believe, "Knowledge is Power".

Hopefully the corn hobby will benefit from this work in time.

It will. To those of us who are in it for the love of our snakes, and not the ones seeing just $, it will benefit. You can rest assured that MANY of us appreciate the hard work your doing, the time you are spending with this gene, and the education you are providing to those of us who know little on genetics. I thank you.

If ya'll made it through my ramblings, I hope they make sense

**HanneysCorns** · 03-14-07, 04:25 AM

Originally Posted by Hurley

The ACR has responded with adding a field for StarGazer status as unproven, proven clear, *S Factored, and Gazer (I'll have to look up the exact terms used, but that's the gist). It will be helpful to be able to trace back the lines.

I am so happy to hear that this is being done.

And Ruth, I think it's time we get up an information page on "Star-Gazing in Corn Snakes" and Chuck and I were planning on getting this going on our site. You are more than welcome to collaborate and/or mirror the page on your site if you wish.

Connie, I'd been thinking exactly that...to have an information page available on my website. At this stage, I don't know how much I could really contribute as far as collaboration, but mirroring your page on the HanneysCorns website would be an honour. Please let me know when you are ready to publish it and I will devote the space on my site as well.

As they say and as I believe, "Knowledge is Power".

Hopefully the corn hobby will benefit from this work in time.

To me, the S factor is not something we need to hide from. There will always be those who would rather 'let sleeping dogs lie'. To me, and I can only speak for myself, the fact that any of my corns which have the sunkissed gene in their makeup could potentially be carriers is enough to warrant further investigation/testing. Once the testing is completed, I can have closure on this whole issue and peace of mind.

When you really think about it, we've been lucky in the corn world that with the amount of selective and linebreeding that goes into proving a new colour/morph is reproducable and inheritable in offspring, we haven't run into a 'defect' earlier. The S factor to me is like unplanned road construction along the highway; sure it's rough and we'd rather not have to travel it, but although it will impede our progress, we'll still get there in the end.

With a conserted effort amongst all those who wish to project with the sunkissed gene, I truly believe we can eliminate it from our corn populace and then confidently carry on with our future endeavors.

Ruth

**HanneysCorns** · 03-14-07, 05:15 AM

Christina, I thank you for your support. I will admit, I was unsure how this announcement would be accepted. Sometimes folks like to place a mantle on me that is hard to carry. Perhaps because when I believe in something, I will stand up and say what is in my heart.

As I said in my post above, I don't think we need to hide from this, we need to face it and deal with it.

Although, you asked this of Connie, I would like to comment...

Originally Posted by ChristinaM

I have a loaded question for you. When you supply other breeders with gazers/hets, will you name them? ( the breeders that is)

If they were named, perhaps this will help this type of situation from showing up..... just a thought to ponder.

I think the S factor has hit us 'broad side' with the newest facts from Connie's work this year. I think some need to digest this new information...let it sink in so to speak.

No one likes to think of the ramifications/impact this may have on their present stock or on sunkissed genes that have been put into the mainstream...especially not now, when breedings have taken place and again another generation of 'potential' carriers may soon pip or be pipping.

As each breeder, who has sunkissed lines, has time to digest the information we now have, they independently will make their decision on how they are going to view and handle the possibility that the S factor is present. The fact that the ACR will list this information gives potential hobbyists/breeders/sunkissed buyers the ability to make an educated decision.

I think ultimately it should and will be the buyers of the sunkissed lines who will determine whether they want to take the chance or buy from lines they know have been tested.

Ruth

**EeekSnakes** · 03-14-07, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by HanneysCorns

I think the S factor has hit us 'broad side' with the newest facts from Connie's work this year. I think some need to digest this new information...let it sink in so to speak.

No one likes to think of the ramifications/impact this may have on their present stock or on sunkissed genes that have been put into the mainstream...especially not now, when breedings have taken place and again another generation of 'potential' carriers may soon pip or be pipping.

As each breeder, who has sunkissed lines, has time to digest the information we now have, they independently will make their decision on how they are going to view and handle the possibility that the S factor is present. The fact that the ACR will list this information gives potential hobbyists/breeders/sunkissed buyers the ability to make an educated decision.

I think ultimately it should and will be the buyers of the sunkissed lines who will determine whether they want to take the chance or buy from lines they know have been tested.

Ruth

Very valid points indeed. Now let's hope the breeders with the sunkissed lines all follow what Connie and yourself are doing. Or if they aren't in favour of testing their lines, hopefully they will be honest and upfront that the potential is there.

**Caroline** · 03-14-07, 10:01 AM

Unfortunately, by the time I was aware of this, a lot of my breedings were already done. I bought a male sunkissed last year which come from Rich Z. I bred him to 4 females this year. 3 of the 4 breedings are projects pairings and the last one is to test my female to see if she is indeed a sunkissed. So I planed to keep several of them anyway.

But since I can't keep all the babies until I test the male, I will have to at least let know the buyers of the possibility and keep them updated. I will not sell any of them in the wholesale market since I want to make sure the buyers will be aware of the possibility. I am trying to acquire a female to test breed him and, if I am lucky, I should be able to do that next year. So I will also add a page on my website with the information about the S factor and how it affect or not my breeders. Hope to be able to test him soon and hope to have great news about him.

**Hurley** · 03-14-07, 11:19 AM

I think all anyone can really ask is honesty. On the buyer's side, it's just a given fact that anything descended from sunkissed is potentially S-factored until proven otherwise. That's just a fact and something we have to add to our bank of knowledge, just like some bloodred lines may have difficulty in getting hatchlings started, etc.

With untested/unproven sunkisseds that have no reason to suspect they have a higher chance of being s-factored (i.e. didn't come from a parent(s)known to carry the gene), the hatchings can be sold normally with a disclaimer (perhaps a stargazer info sheet?) that because they come from sunkissed lines, the possibility exists that the gene is in the lines. Perhaps even tell them to either register the hatchling with the ACR so they can easily check the parents from their snake's record for star-gazer status updates or have them watch the parents' records themselves to see if the star-gazer status changes from unknown to proven (one way or another).

With snakes from known s-factored parents, if they are sold/given away, the new owner should be apprasied of the risk and % (i.e. these hatchlings are 50% possible s-factored or 67% possible s-factored). It is really up the the breeder and what they perceive is ethical on whether these hatchlings should be sold or not. Realistically, I consider any sunkissed line animal to be 50% possible s-factored until the line is proven otherwise. That's just me and my view comes a lot from my background and the feeling that with negative genes it's better to be too cautious than to pretend it doesn't exist and hope for the best.

With that point, a 50% possible s-factored animal is probably no worse than an unknown sunkissed line animal, to be honest. Think of amel and how pretty much any corn snake in the industry is at least 50% possible het amel unless the line is proven clear or the line is pure descendant of wild-caught stock. (Actually, the % is higher than that due to selection pressure, but for the sake of argument 50% works.) Now think of how sunkisseds originated, from a small group of individuals in which some were s-factored. I see no difference here except that one gene isn't detrimental and one is.

What am I getting at through all of these ramblings? That the decision lies with the breeder on how they sell their sunkissed line snakes and if they sell them. That is a personal choice of the breeder and THERE IS NO ONE RIGHT ANSWER, just what is right for them and where they draw their line in the sand. The decision also lies with the buyer and what they are looking for and what their comfort level is. A buyer of a pet snake can buy a known s-factored individual and have the perfect snake they were looking for. Someone looking to start a sunkissed project with perhaps 1 male sunkissed at the cornerstone of that project may be best served trying to get a male from a clean line or make arrangements to test their male since it's much easier to test 1 animal clean than 100 hatchlings. Someone (like ourselves) with many animals on the ground from unknown, clean, and s-factored snakes has some work cut out for them and it will take years to know who carries what. Am I going to never breed Shere Khan because her mother is s-factored? Yeah, right. That individual will be bred even if she does test s-factored and I will personally test all her babies and get clean ones in the next generation rather than lose that special snake.

The best recommendation I can have is think through your collection and lines and get a plan. Find the easiest test points (in Caroline's case, obviously, test the sunkissed male). In our case, testing the progeny of s-factored Mattie and the parents of sunkissed project hatchlings (Zammy) and the progeny of sunkissed adults not in the collection that were not tested (Sibbie, sister of Strong Bad who was tested clear by breeding Mattie last year). Run your trail of evidence. My kids from Strong Bad outcrossed to non-sunkissed lines are now assumed clear of the gene since daddy doesn't carry it. If Zammy tests out clear next season, we will know her kids are most likely clear as well.

Unfortunately, it is a reality that until snakes are tested against known s-factored snakes, the potential exists for the gene to pass undetected through a couple generations easily. We see it all the time with seizures in dogs. In Aussies specifically, the gene is recessive but at present they haven't achieved a blood test for it. There is coverup and lying amongst some breeders who don't want to admit the problem and it is complicated by the fact that seizures often don't show up until after a dog is bred. Their solution? A disasterous one...outcross, outcross, outcross so you don't see it. What does (and did) this do? Disseminate the seizure gene across all lines undetected and now crossings will produce seizures seemingly at random and it's not contained within a line. Luckily for the Aussie world, a blood test is being created and will be a reality within a couple years, projected. We are not going to have that luxury (unless someone wins the lottery or somehow the right people in that kind of research take a special interest and get funded).

I seriously hope people in the corn world don't do what the Aussie people did. We've got the gene caught early enough that we should be able to make some headway, although I fear it's probably a little too late to stop it altogether for all time. At least we can start within our own collections and clear a breeding population to move forward with and we can keep some known testers around for when the gene pops up somewhere in an important project.

That's my goal, at least.

midnightline · 03-14-07, 12:11 PM

the hatchings can be sold normally with a disclaimer (perhaps a stargazer info sheet?)

I like that idea... perhaps someone could make up an "official" s-factored FAQ sheet that people can hand out to prospective buyers of sunkissed lines?

Questions like:
What does S-factored mean?
How do I recognize Stargazers?
Should I care about s-factored snakes?
What should I do if I find out my snake is s-factored?

and so on.

I think an "industry standard" information sheet would be a better idea than everyone making up their own.

Also, it might be a good idea for the ACR to do some sort of S-factor-free certification program... (Yeah, I know, here I am thinking up work for other people

)

**Hurley** · 03-14-07, 12:26 PM

I like that idea... perhaps someone could make up an "official" s-factored FAQ sheet that people can hand out to prospective buyers of sunkissed lines?

Questions like:
What does S-factored mean?
How do I recognize Stargazers?
Should I care about s-factored snakes?
What should I do if I find out my snake is s-factored?

and so on.

I think an "industry standard" information sheet would be a better idea than everyone making up their own.

Being done as I type, thanks for some more ideas for FAQs. I'm making up a page for our website that will be freely distributable to anyone wishing to copy/paste the text. I'll try to make a printer-friendly version mirror without our name/snakery on it so anyone can have a generic handout to print off.

Once done, I'll link it and ask for opinions if I missed anything you'd like addressed.

Also, it might be a good idea for the ACR to do some sort of S-factor-free certification program... (Yeah, I know, here I am thinking up work for other people )

I've thought on this one already and am trying to figure out how it could/should be done. Problem is it's still an honor thing and you're depending on the knowledge of the people out there to do it right.

Things that could go in to the "certification" program would be something like:
The snake requesting certification status must have one of the following:

X number of hatchlings required from an S-factored tester to the snake requesting certification with no star gazers produced. (What would be reasonable? 99% certainty, 95%? We'll have to crunch the numbers and come up with something reasonable.)

Coming from 2 parents certified S-factor free

Problem comes in liability and understanding of what "certification" means. It would never be a guarantee, obviously. 99% certain is not 100% and the possibility exists for one to be missed. Another point -The ACR's information is only as good as the people supplying it. If someone simply chooses to falsify records and say such and such a cross was done and these were the results and didn't do anything, how are we to verify this? See what I mean? Of course, if they do that and then gazer producers are discovered, it would be a black mark on them, I guess.

I welcome thoughts on this.