Sunkissed.. ( praying for no S gene )

[TandJ]

Our critter from our Banner.. His Momma has proved positive for carrying the S genetics and his Poppa certainly believed to be a non carrier.. 50/50 chance.. He breed this year, and I guess I am going to have to wait a few years to test breed him back to his offspring other wise he is certainly one of our most positively commented on animals in our collection.. I suppose if he proves positive, I guess I will have a really purdy pet..


He shed yesterday sometime, so today he was primped and proper for a few pictures..







Regards.. Tim of T and J

[Corns.nl]

I'm sorry to ask, but could you fill me in about the ' S-factor/gene' ? somehow i've missed that part...

Arjan

[Joanna]

He's beautiful! I hope he does not turn out to be positive for S factor. I will have a similar dilemma this year. I have bred my sunkissed - unknown if either parent carries the gene. I also plan on breeding him back to his babies.

Joanna

[bribrian]

Originally Posted by Corns.nl

I'm sorry to ask, but could you fill me in about the ' S-factor/gene' ? somehow i've missed that part...

Arjan

Arjan, if you search 'stargazer' you'll get a couple of threads on it.....

[TandJ]

Yes, Connie has been spending a lot of time on the Star Gazing genetics.. Indeed, her research will prove instrumental with the future stock of Sunkissed genetics, or at least in these circles, which she indeed deserves a lot of Kudo's for her time and research..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

[EeekSnakes]

Ohhhh, he sure is purdy. Good luck with him, I hope he is not s-factored cuz I'm sure his babies would be stunning.

[Cornsnakesalive]

I actually hope you do get some Sfactors, so we can start to get a few proven Sfactor carriers to be able to use to test other Sunkissed. I was going to test my Sunkissed in the same way as you are, but I decided that a blind test, was not the best way for me to go, since I have several Sunkissed to test out. I have a male Sunkissed that is known to be 50% poss Sfactor, but breeding him blindly to other Sunkissed, would not really prove anything unless I got a match, which seems to be a long shot. As soon as I come up with a female Sunkissed that is het for the Sfactor, he will be tested at that time.

I believe that I may have some Sfactors in one of my projects, so if they prove out to be carriers this year, I will have a pair of carriers to testing my other Sunkissed with results that can be used. I believe the Sfactor is a serious fatal gene, that needs to be eliminated from our Corn Snake gene pool, but the best way will be to test with a known carrier, so the results can prove positively whether or not the tested Sunkissed is a carrier.

[TandJ]

Damn site timed out my reply.. That really sucks, and wasted a lot of my time, and toasted a hugh reponse for Joe..


Joe, I would be more than willing to work something out with you.. You want him for a test monkey?


Regards.. Tim of T and J

[Caroline]

Originally Posted by T and J

Damn site timed out my reply..

Check «remind me» when you log in and you will be ok. I had this problem before but even if you don't check the box, just log in back and you will not loose anything.

[Cornsnakesalive]

My point was certainly not to offend anybody, but to offer perhaps a different opinion about how to deal with the Sfactor. Each person will have to decide how to approach the Sfactor themselves. I personally do not believe that blind testing is of much use.

My situation is this. I have a male Sunkissed that is 50% poss het Sfactor. We only know this because one of his parents has proven to be a carrier. I definitely want to know if he is a carrier, as well as all of my Sunkissed that I have used to create projects with. I wanted to find a female which is known Sfactor carrier to test him out. This type of test would be conclusive and something that I could use. I thought about breeding him to all of my Sunkissed females, but they are not known to be poss hets. My male could be a carrier, and after breeding him to all three females, I would not have learned anything at all. Now I have produced three clutches of 50% poss het Sfactor without even knowing it and added to the problem. I can not hold back three clutches of Sunkissed to test out down the road, and I do not believe that most people would be willing to do that either.

The idea of raising up offspring to breed back to a parent to prove if a Sunkissed is a carrier or not, is still not a great one. You have to raise up enough offspring to be able to say that you most likely had enough 50% poss hets to get a match and you have to breed them back to both parents. This may work for males, but will not be a good test for females at all. Each and every Sunkissed that you try to test this way, will be a monumental task, equal to trying to create a new morph. I do not believe that most people will stick to this type of test long enough to accomplish the goal, and we will be left with a bunch of poss hets and nothing to do with them.

I believe there will be more and more Sfactor positive Sunkissed that will become available in time. I believe that I may have a pair of Sfactors here now and I will re-breed them this year which will be conclusive. Last year, I remember a couple of Normals in a clutch from a project that were crawling funny, but I did not make the connection. If this pair does prove to be Sfactor carriers, I will use the female to test my male out next year, and I will know if all of his offspring are now 50% poss carriers, or not carrying the Sfactor gene at all, at least from him. I will also use the male Sfactor carrier to test all of my females, and they will be tested out as well and we will know if any or none of their offspring are also carriers as well.

This type of test will be conclusive and positive steps can be taken to let everybody know which offspring are possible carriers and which are clean. I believe that blind testing, will only help to spread the Sfactor gene even further. We may get a match this way, but I believe that most Sunkissed are not carriers, so blind testing will usually not result in a match. I for one, will be willing to send any Sfactor carriers to others for testing, or have Sunkissed sent here to be tested if and when I prove out any Sfactor carriers. I think through a cooperative effort we will be able to prove some lines to be pure, but the Sfactor gene is not limited to only Sunkissed. I am sure it has spread to other lines and will be with us from now until eturnity. You may prove your Sunkissed lines to be pure, but the Sfactor could be lurking right next door in one of your Amels. Are you going to test all of your Corns for the Sfactor to be sure that you do not have the gene in your colony?

I do not believe the Sfactor is the end of the Corn Snake World as we know it. Sfactor X Sfactor will only produce 25% Stargazers. The rest of the clutch will be perfectly healthy. I realize the healthy ones are carriers, but certainly not all of them. This brings up some ethical questions that we are going to have to deal with. What do we do when we get a Sfactor positive test? I for one, have been deemed immoral for putting sick or deformed snakes in the freezer and told that if I was living in their country, I could be put in jail for animal cruelty. I personally feel, that if a test is done and both parents are proven to be Sfactor carriers, the entire clutch should be put down. On the other hand, offspring from a proven Sfactor carrier, are only 50% het Sfactor, and I may put down offspring that are Sunkissed, but not Het Sunkissed Lavenders, because 50% of them are not carriers.

Sunkissed certainly have the Sfactor gene closer to home than other mutants, but the Sunkissed gene and the Sfactor was discovered a very long time ago. I am not exactly sure how Kathy tried to eliminate the Sfactor gene herself, but now that so much time has gone by, the Sunkissed gene is spread from coast to coast and the Sfactor gene not limited to only Sunkissed lines. Proving that your Sunkissed lines are free of the Sfactor gene is definitely a good thing, but in no way will prove your colony is free of the gene. I doubt that there are many Snake Shows that you can go to, that you won’t find some Sunkissed or carriers in the building. There are just too many people involved with Corns that are unknowingly spreading the gene right under everybody’s noses.

I do not believe that anybody will say that testing your Sunkissed for the Sfactor gene is a waist of time, but blind testing, is not much better for stopping the spread of the diseases as doing nothing at all. I believe that most people are breeding Sunkissed X Sunkissed, such as Don S and Rich Z, and there I have not heard of Sfactor positive Corns popping up in every collection around the country. I believe that Kathy did a pretty good job of eliminating the Sfactor gene in the beginning or we would be seeing much more of the gene now.

I feel that a breeding of a 50% poss Sfactor carrier, to a Sunkissed is not a test at all, but only creating more questions and poss Sfactor carriers. I have a 50% poss Sfactor carrier and could have bred him to my three Sunkissed females and my Okeetee het Sunkissed female and if none of them are Sfactor positive, and my male is in fact Sfactor positive, I would have done nothing, but create four clutches of 50% poss Sfactor offspring and learned nothing at all. My male could be clean and all of my females could be carrying the Sfactor gene and I still would not know a thing. The only test that will have any useful results is to test to a known Sfactor carrier. My point in posting to this thread was to point out, that in MY opinion, a blind test is not really a test for the Sfactor gene.

Everybody has already been breeding Sunkissed X Sunkissed and luckily the Sfactor gene has not been popping up everywhere. Sunkissed poss Sfactor X Sunkissed will most likely not test for the gene, but if the Poss het is a Het after all, it will spread the gene even further, and we will not know it, so how is this a test?

Eliminating all 50% poss hets would be a much better approach than spending several years trying to test out all of the 50% poss hets, while creating more in the process. The only reason I can see to not put down 50% poss hets, are the ones that have already been used as breeders. At least, they can be tested with an Sfactor positive mate, and prove their offspring are not carrying the gene, or ALL of their offspring are 50% poss hets and should be put down.

Is this what should be done with known 50% poss hets? What should be done with the Sfactor X test subject offspring? Shouldn’t they be put down immediately as well? When we prove out an Sfactor carrier, then all of their offspring in the past are 50% poss hets. Should we put them down immediately, or try to test them out? It would seem that trying to test out every 50% poss het carrier, would only cause more problems. What are we going to do with all of the knowledge we gather doing these tests? I do not believe that trying to test all 50% poss het carriers is the way to go. If we know they are 50% poss het carriers, then the only real positive steps that can be taken to eliminate the Sfactor gene is to put them down. Are we willing to do that?